Religious Drift

Balajee · Jul 14, 2017

Glad that you admit that we have created God .But the question is has not this creation run out of steam,? I think humanity has crossed that stage of evolution when we had to link our ethics with hope of rewrds or fer of punishment in the afterlife. The God idea has become anti-humanity, a divisive negative force. I am proud that I have not giuven any religious ideas to my daughter. Humanism is the greatest religion and you don't need an imaginary guy upstairs for it.

BhumiBabe · Jul 14, 2017

HariLakhera said: ↑

You mean

@Sandycandy: you mean to say religious people can also be materialistic and immoral. That is the problem. The moment we see such people leading dubious life, we start losing faith in religion itself. It is more so for present generation. Secularity is different. Fact is we all have to be moralistic and less materialistic before we try to preach religion and gain the confidence of generation next.

[QUOTE="BhumiBabe,

Nowadays, I am personally quite secular. It surprises me how secular I am, since I remember how spiritual I thought I was. Not thinking about god, has actually improved my life, in a way, because I no longer pray to god for a better life, or blame god for the life I have. I feel a little more responsible for my own actions and try my best to maintain my own integrity and good heart. There is no fear, because my own conscience leads me to do the right thing, not the possibility of punishment from god.

I admire your frank admission. I am meeting more and more of your lot these days. Is am one of those guys who claim to be spiritual but not ritualistic-meaning I do believe in some super natural power but do not go to meet him in the temples or at a specific place in my house. But some of the old conditioning is still there like visiting temples once in a while, reading religious books like Gita and Ranayana as a routine and so on.
Generation before me and even my generation made so many conditions difficult to believe and more difficult to follow. Present generation is rationalistic and argumentive and they want proof. Any thing that we can not see or talk to but feel only does not convince them. It's like a taste, you can feel it but cannot describe it.
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I am open about my beliefs, though I don't advertise it in my life. I am technically a "spiritual not religious" person, and I think many people can easily identify as that. It's a simple, noncommittal stance, that doesn't offend anyone. There is a belief in god, but not the dependence on god.

I don't need substantial proof to believe in "god" - like a prophet performing miracles or some divine intervention in someone's life. I don't need stories that explain who god or gods have come to help humanity. I enjoy the stories, but I don't believe them. To me, there is something beyond what we understand and can explain, and that enters god territory.

Most people only "need" god when things get rough and out of their control. I have always found that negotiating with god for opportunities, things, health, etc, reduces the actual level of spirituality one has, and it enters the religious territory.

To pass down to my son, I wouldn't want him to think he needs to negotiate with a god to get a decent life. I don't want him to think that god has control over his test. Instead, if he does choose to pray, pray for the guidance to not forget everything he has learned for the test.

HariLakhera · Jul 15, 2017

Balajee said: ↑

Glad that you admit that we have created God .But the question is has not this creation run out of steam,? I think humanity has crossed that stage of evolution when we had to link our ethics with hope of rewrds or fer of punishment in the afterlife. The God idea has become anti-humanity, a divisive negative force. I am proud that I have not giuven any religious ideas to my daughter. Humanism is the greatest religion and you don't need an imaginary guy upstairs for it.
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Long back somebody in Communist Russia said that Religion is the opium of masses. Another intellectual said if there was no god, we would have created him anyway. As I said it is only a concept which has been named as God. Slowly and slowly that concept itself is dieing. I think it is because we have not been in a position to position that concept in right manner, convincing manner. In the heart of hearts we know there is some super natural power that guides our life but can't explain it. I do not know how to explain it. But we took a wrong way to explain it and made it mysterious and complex beyond comprehension of young minds.
I am with you. The biggest religion is humanity. But then they will ask what is humanity and we will say do good be good and they will say what is good and what is bad. They are rational and logical.

Sandycandy · Jul 15, 2017

Why is being secular different or negative ? It's important to have secular media, its a crucial part of any democracy.
Let the new generation interpret religion on their own terms, why should we force feed our idea of God to them?

HariLakhera said: ↑

You mean

@Sandycandy: you mean to say religious people can also be materialistic and immoral. That is the problem. The moment we see such people leading dubious life, we start losing faith in religion itself. It is more so for present generation. Secularity is different. Fact is we all have to be moralistic and less materialistic before we try to preach religion and gain the confidence of generation next.
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HariLakhera · Jul 15, 2017

Sandycandy said: ↑

Why is being secular different or negative ? It's important to have secular media, its a crucial part of any democracy.
Let the new generation interpret religion on their own terms, why should we force feed our idea of God to them?
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The very word secular is positive because it talks of freedom of religious worship and practices and it is vital for democracy. Rightly or wrongly politiciNs have used religion for vote bank and religious leaders have taken the bait for gratifications and favors. Both are getting inseparable.
New generation is wise enough to decide for themselves because they are not part of the herd mentality. They are educated, ambitious and forward looking. Yet, yet they too are the product of present day system which rewards opportunists.

HariLakhera · Jul 16, 2017

SunPa said: ↑

But how many religions even accept God as a concept? Or atleast as a personal decision.
To many even such a thought is blasphemy.
For that matter how can one say one religion is the best if you havent practiced and learnt other religions ? But they do, even when they cannot even tell the basic tenets of another religion.
This extreme religious ones are the ones really harming religion.

DD was telling me about a bunch of University kids at her campus, trying to get friendly and tell her how on Judgement day , whether you believe it or not , "God" will consider her a disbeliever and send her to hell. Some of the brightest kids, supposedly.
Really? If they knew my daughter they wouldnt have said that . Because she is the kind who would say , if you people are going to heaven, then I will gladly accept hell. I am sure I will have scintillating company there.
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Religious preachers sound like mystic and that is why thye talk of judgement day, kayamat and end of Kliyuga. On the one hand they say there is no beginning and no end and then in the same breath they say of judgement day and so on. Let me tell you a true story. In a class of some 50 kids, the teacher said the universe will be annihilated in xxxxxx years. The kid in the last row could not listen and asked to be sure ' in how many years Sir?' The teacher replied in 5000 years. The kid sat down muttering 'then no problem'.
These types of baseless talks promotes the religious drift.
In my opinion there is n need to force the basic tenets of religious on unwilling people. If require they will learn. People who have no knowledge of these tenets or do not believe in religion as taught are good and moralistic .
Religious bodies will never accepts God as a concept. They will only talk of what is written in scripts and do their own translations as it suit them.

HariLakhera · Jul 16, 2017

shyamala1234 said: ↑

Dear Hari

Dear Hariji,
Faith in God is a personal thing . It does not appeal to logic or rationality.
Religion.....because I am born as a Hindu I love my religion and at the same time do not have anything against other religions .I respect them.
In any religion there are some negative things.......should make an attempt to remove them atleast at a personal level.
How one wants to interpret religion also varies from person to person. Cannot generalize.
Syamala
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That is why I say why enforce it on others, including our own children. Let them learn it from experience or let it come to them from within. Anything forced generates rebelation and young minds are more prone to it.
Practice your beliefs by all means but do not force it on others. Do not belittle others' religion. They have their beliefs as you have.
Drift is occurring because we are force feeding them.

HariLakhera · Jul 16, 2017

jayasala42 said: ↑

Dear Hariji,
You have taken an important unsolved question for discussion.Your arguments have been put forth in a way -about which volumes have been written even from the days of Ramayana.

My take:
No doubt. But it is more relevant today because in every religion there is a drift.

There have been existing for long religious, spiritual, God fearing and ritualistic people in the world each having different ideas about the creator and Creations. Advaitham, ,vishishtaadwaitham and Dwaitham cocepts have created waves already.Research is already on about the 'delusion' or Maya as suggested by Advaitha and the reality or otherwise of 'mind' in famous Western Universities.

A question arises ,whether our ancestors well versed in astronomy and other sciences would have spent fortunes merely on temples for delivering a simple 'concept'.

My take:
There is no attempt to belittle the wisdom of our religious gurus, past or present. They have said it in so many words but still beyond the comprehension of ordinary mortals. You know how Gita has been interpreted by many but still remains a topic for discussions.

We should have a concept to conceptualise what a'concept'.is.
First of all we don't know what a concept is.
Concept has many wonderful definitions beyond our understanding.

My take:
To me the God is 'The' concept. Or we can give it any other name. Swami Sivananda of DLS was asked 'have you seen God?' And his reply was 'yes , I see Him everyday, every second, every where. I see Him in you'. No doubt it was his experience of many years of sadhana but the person was a simple mortal. He had to say 'yes swamiji' but I doubt if he was convinced as I am not cnvinced. The day we will see God in all humans, there will be no useless fights, wars, refugees and so on.

Is it an idea or thought that emanates out of our mind? and then where does that mind exist?
How long -period- a concept can last? can it last for ever? can it change its face?
Where is the concept located? Is it real or virtual?
How the concept of'God' compares itself to many other concepts?like concept of the structure of'atom', concept about a 'radar' or rocket or satellite or concept of a big 'sky raised' building or concept of 'alapana' or raga or rhythm during a musical concert?or the concept of a simple algebraic equation?

My take:
The concept will last as long as we want or should I say as long as humanity exists. It can not be compared with a building or anything that we can see and touch. It can at best be compared with what we feel.

Does concept have a content of its own?
Does it relate to idea or any form of knowledge?
If we do not have clear answers for these questions ,how can we treat God as a 'concept'?
Anyway the degradation of present day values among human beings can never be attributed to the'faith' people have in God and the associated rituals and religious practices associated with 'God'.
Even if all the people in the Universes accept that God is only a 'concept' and desist from religious rituals,the world cannot become better unless there are amazing transformation in respect of other factors that have attributed to the present deplorable state.

My take:
accepting God as a concept will not solve any of these problems of degradation in values as rituals and religious practices associated have not solved any of these problems. It will to my mind simplify the need for a God and arrest the drift that is taking place. As per one study, only 60% Christians visit churches, a good percentage of Muslims do not do the five time Namaz or observe Roja, a good majority of Hindus do not visit temples or perform rituals but that does not mean they are bad people.

Jayasala42
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Religious Drift

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