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Gabfest: And Thereby Hangs A Tail

Discussion in 'Education & Personal Growth' started by Cimorene, Jan 9, 2017.

  1. Gauri03

    Gauri03 Moderator Staff Member IL Hall of Fame

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    It is not at all like the straight 'coming outs' and straight 'pride parades'. That's just a bunch of attention-seeking homophobes making noise. If we allow cis-gendered individuals to not have to state their personal pronouns then we are making them the default gender identity. That amounts to giving them privileged status, as if they are normal or better than those who need to specify their gender. Isn't that what got us here in the first place? If everyone specifies their pronouns then no one is special or different. When I choose who I am then I allow you the freedom to do so as well. It equalizes us.

    I have to admit I have a tough time with the numerous PGP variations. So far only comfortable with they/theirs/themselves and using the person's name instead of pronouns.

    And of course, mine are she/her/herself. : )
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2019
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  2. Mistt

    Mistt IL Hall of Fame

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    Congratulations for the new nest!
    May the warmth of new home keep you all happy always.:)
     
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  3. Kohvachn

    Kohvachn Bronze IL'ite

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    Lol. Yeah. Think that's what made me question the authenticity of this movement too in the first place, and had missed seeing beyond. :facepalm:

    Well put and point-blank, thank you, couldn't have said any better! :wink1:

    Yep. I do come across xe/xem, ze/zem and their variations in SM. They/them is in use for a while now and we have gotten comfortable enough I guess. Other pronouns could follow their way, though the world isn't really all that sweet and the same everywhere yet. We will eventually get there someday I hope! Imagine how often they had to/have to correct others in even just a day length of time? And what it takes for them every time! :hmmm: If only we are more willing to acknowledge their existence, understand their life (struggles) and be mindful of their choices starting with this simple act of respecting their pronouns, to whom this could just mean the world. Some empathy doesn't hurt anyone! :buenrollo: Btw, instead of the boring usual gender checkboxes, there should be a gradient wheel or something to choose from. How had that be! :lol:

    On discussions about using the word "preferred" they encourage to replace it with "correct pronouns" - "as their identity is not just a "preference" but core to their being (who they are)"; Even better if it's dropped out and we go with only "My pronouns are...". Hm, sounds right to me. :wink1:

    Nice! I'm a She/her. I have added it to my SM bios too. It's not "pregnant woman" anymore but "pregnant people" these days! What interesting times to live in! :cool: And, I'm glad this conversation is happening here. :beer-toast1:
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2019
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  4. Kohvachn

    Kohvachn Bronze IL'ite

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    Question #2: :blush:

    I had noticed the trans community differing in their opinions whenever the discussions are about how they feel about non-binary genders. To them, it's like their struggles as a transsexual person, what it takes to be one, becomes invalid and irrelevant if anyone could just claim they are a non-binary and choose to be what they wish to be just like that. I recall a comment: "You can't just wake up and call yourself an oven!" I get their frustrations but...

    By nature, it's only M and F. Or Intersexual, when ambiguity has happened on nature's part. They can choose to become who they want, however, they had like to live and identify. But for trans and non-binary people, it's mostly about how they feel about themselves, isn't? While trans people choose to get transitioned to either M or F from their assigned gender, some might choose to be M or F or neither or however they might feel any day- living non conforming but that's not valid? :thinking:

    How the existence of NB renders trans people's struggles to finally get there and be who they are, meaningless? How is this attitude any different to the outsiders rejecting NB? :hmmm:

    Does it not make the trans people a _phobic themselves? Sort of internalized racism or something within the queer spectrum? :confundio1:

    I like to understand. Thoughts, please. :grazy:
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2019
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  5. Gauri03

    Gauri03 Moderator Staff Member IL Hall of Fame

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    Glad you brought that up! Now I know you are not a fan of reading...cough cough... Brother's Karamazov : )), but if you have the patience I recommend you read The Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin. I can't think of a better book to understand the superfluity of gender vis-à-vis personal identity. In the book, the Gethenians are a biologically genderless species. There are no male/female roles in their society. During a period known as kemmer, a Gethenian may, triggered by situational stimuli, temporarily become either male or female for the purposes of sexual reproduction. Every individual can become pregnant depending on the role their bodies choose. It's a thought experiment in the form of a science fiction novel. Quite beautifully written as only ULG could.

    I'm not sure how I feel about that. Maybe as a woman I feel protective of my ability to give birth. Probably need to introspect. I must confess I find the whole 'we are pregnant' thing mildly annoying. I can live with 'we are having a baby' but no dude, you are not pregnant! I understand the need for partners to be supportive of their pregnant spouses, but the one doing the heavy lifting rightfully deserves the spotlight.

    As an aside, 'May you live in interesting times' was supposedly an old Chinese curse. : ) I tend to agree with the sentiment.
     
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  6. Kohvachn

    Kohvachn Bronze IL'ite

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    That synopsis got me curious and I looked up but got distracted by all the controversies instead. :sweatsmile: Seems ULG had faced some feminists backslashes for using "he" as the common pronoun for the Gethenians.

    ...While Le Guin’s alien race changed genders, in their default state they used male pronouns. Genly is male, too. “At first I felt a little bit defensive,” she told Curry. “But as I thought about it, I began to see that my critics were right.”

    Hm. Some years after TLHoD, she has published "Coming of Age in Karhide" - more like an extended version of the same with similar settings but from a "feministic perspective", where the Gethenians are referred to as "she" instead. Anyways, the gender fluidity concept (from any pov be it) sounds interesting enough to give a read, will do definitely...thattt isss if the pigeons didn't take away my books! *cough* Brother's Karamazov. :lol:

    Ahem. Also some questions from the linguistic angle on gender fluidity. :biggrin:

    Most handles on SM and forums have odd, funky, quirky names that sometimes it's really hard to tell the users' genders without checking full bios/profiles. Misgendering (any gender for that matter) happens quite often (been there myself). Some of us manage to use a gender-neutral tone in posts/replies for the better, so I get the narrative styles of books that are dealing with fluid characters and storylines. What if such concepts are to be written/translated in- say German or Hindi (correct me if I'm wrong) which are some languages that have genders for even verbs, adjectives, etc. aside just nouns? How (much) the grammar/syntax of sentences (and the language overall too) will change with the introduction of these neo-modern neutral pronouns (xe/xem, ze/zem...) for such languages as they are heavily based on binary gender constructs only? How easy or complex the language transformations be? Will all languages one day evolve (to be agender in nature) in the future, to accommodate the wide and growing spectrum of gender identities?

    ...too far fetched? zZzuper silly? :facepalm:
    Blame this comic for giving me ideas! :p

    dino~01~01.jpg
    Hehe!
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2019
  7. Kohvachn

    Kohvachn Bronze IL'ite

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    When I meant "pregnant people", it was more in the sense like...
    ...within the previous conversation context of transgenders and nonbinary people. :innocent:

    Otherwise, (I think) I agree. :wink1:
     
  8. Anusha2917

    Anusha2917 IL Hall of Fame

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    Congratulations :cheer:
     
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  9. Gauri03

    Gauri03 Moderator Staff Member IL Hall of Fame

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    Thank you! : )
     
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  10. Gauri03

    Gauri03 Moderator Staff Member IL Hall of Fame

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    If you (as in the feminists, not you) are determined to find fault that is all you will find. TLHoD is one of science-fiction's most beloved books, winner of both the Hugo and the Nebula awards. It was radical in its conception, and flawlessly written. Not to forget that it was published 50 years ago in 1969. We didn't even start grappling with gender identities seriously until a decade ago. I'd say ULG was being kind to acknowledge her critics, not that they deserved it.

    TLHoD is not about gender fluidity though it has become common among trans and other such movements to appropriate the book and claim it for their causes. It is a book about a genderless society. The point it makes is that individual identity need not be tied to a gender of any kind.

    As to the languages your guess is as good as mine. I don't think most languages will undergo any sort of radical change to accommodate gender identities. English will, only because it is the default language of the Internet, but I can't predict the pace or the nature of it. Any change that does occur will take decades to find general acceptance. If you think about it, 100 years after the first wave of feminism we are still arguing over mankind vs humankind.
     
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