Translation Please

For OP:

Why do we say that the ‘Nataraja’ is profound?

The image represents Shiva as the cosmic dancer. Although dithyrambic and corybantic traditions are known in other cultures as well, I cannot think of any other artist-devotee who conceived of his God as a dancer. This conception is magnificent!

The earliest images of Nataraja, similar to the one posted here, are dated around the 6[SUP]th[/SUP] century, generally attributed to the Chola period in Southern India. The Nataraja temple in Tillai (Tamil) / Chidambaram (Sanskrit, ‘Chit’ = consciousness, ‘ambaram’ = cosmos) dates from around the 10[SUP]th[/SUP] or 11[SUP]th[/SUP] centuries. The ideas behind the original conception are older still, but there is some debate. The most common modern summaries are derived from Tamil texts, the ‘Tirumanthiram’ (Holy Mantra) and ‘Unnmai Vilakkam’ (A Discourse on Truth) which are dated to the 13[SUP]th[/SUP] – 14[SUP]th[/SUP] centuries and modern commentaries by Tamil scholar Nallasamy Pillai.

Why Shiva as the King of Dance?

Dance implies movement, movement implies change, change implies time, time implies rhythm and together they represent energy. Combined with this is the Indian idea of ‘Lila’, loosely translated as ‘play’. Here ‘play’ does not mean arbitrary or frivolous, but implies joy and abundance – the cosmic energy out of which the universe is born.

The iconography of the image is well discussed by Coomarasamy. Here is a précis.
The image can be seen as a prayer:

“O Shiva, you are the creator, sustainer and destroyer of the universe. Like fire latent in wood, you are the energy of the cosmos (Damaru /drum). With your light, dispel my illusions. With your grounded foot, crush my ignorance (Apasmara). With your fire, burn the thread of causality that binds me to cycles of life and death. In you I seek refuge (abhayamudra). Through you I seek moksha (raised foot). For you I create a graveyard of my ego. Come dance in the Tillai of my heart!”

This is very moving and powerful in itself. It does not need any accretions to justify it!

 

Dear @sokanasanah,
Oops…! I made an error in mentioning atomic weight in place of atomic Number, as pointed out by you. Thanks.

Dear @Gauri03,
QUOTE=Gauri03;3480389]Could you elaborate on this? How does the Hindu concept of the universe account for the Higgs field/particle? I've read of the cyclical creation and destruction of the universe but nothing about the nature of matter or energy that corresponds with our current models of the universe. Haven't seen any credible material on this subject. At least nothing that doesn't come across as your usual quantum woo-peddling![/QUOTE]

You have asked me to elaborate. I am afraid that this discussion is going deeper and deeper into science starting from a spiritual question. However I will be brief and limit myself to my personal enquiries and understanding.

Our current progress in modelling universe is now reaching a stage in which one cannot prove conclusively by “Experimental Physics” what “Theoretical Physicists” visualize (including Multiverse / string- theories). This is simply because we, with our five senses through which all our scientific knowledge has accumulated and progressing, cannot travel in space (and Time) faster than the speed of light. (You might have seen very many recent TV serials on Galaxy formation, black holes etc etc).

As I mentioned in my first response by some process unknown to us and our five senses, broke these limitations by sixth sense. Even in 20[SUP]th[/SUP] century we have recorded evidence of ‘Lahiri Mahasay’ (known as Levitating Saint), defying gravity. We have recorded evidence in San Francisco of “ Paramahansa Yogananda’s body defying molecular (Tissue) degeneration of a dead body with time .( Refer Auto Biography of an Yogi By Parama Hansa Yogananda).

Higgs Boson Particle is considered as the ultimate sub atomic particle which may be the building block of universe from energy manifestation.

When they talk about God the Brahmam, Indian Philosophers referred to Him as the one who is smaller than Paramaanu and bigger than the universe. Paramaanu (ultimate particle within ‘ANU’ the Atom in the form of Param- God), (Please refer ‘Spanda Karikas’ - Amazon.com: Spanda-Karikas: The Divine Creative Pulsation (9788120808218): Jaideva Singh: Books mentioned in my earlier response and also Vinayagar Agaval in Tamil). Brahmam, The Shiva is known as “Kaal” – (Please refer my blog- “ Flowers of Fragrance” on Sai Ashtotrams Flower 10,11,12 and 13 -http://www.indusladies.com/forums/blogs/suryakala/shri-shirdi-sai-baba-ashtotra-7381/

While talking about Higgs particle scientist are yet to conclusively say what is the state of matter when all the manifestation (Universe/ Multiverse is absorbed in that single point without dimensions. Does it vibrate? How it manifests again? (Refer Spanda Karikas).

I feel, no experiment can prove, no theory can visualize except through the sixth sense.

Graphic depiction of God (such as Nataraja) is just for the five senses to lead you into real knowledge through sixth sense. And Nataraja is a beautiful, divine, closest depiction of Brahmam.

Alas, one has to find their own way, to the sixth sense and cannot be taught (as any teaching involves five senses with their limitation in space and time).

 

Not really, @Suryakala! This discussion is simply a plea to not conflate the poetic apprehension of the universe as articulated by the mystics, no matter how eloquent, with the apparatus and understanding provided by science. These are fundamentally different ways of relating to the world.

Here are some thoughts for reflection:

(a) The original conception of black holes belongs to Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar, a physicist of extraordinary genius and achievement. Refined and urbane, he wrote with great feeling about art and literature and was a great admirer of Shakespeare. Never once did he refer to any religious or mystical text as the foundation for his physics. He spoke mathematics. Let us not trivialize his achievement by misattributing it to the Spanda-Karikas.

(b) Ramanujan, who was profoundly religious, spoke on many occasions of the goddess of Namakkal who appeared in his dreams. While he considered her the font of his genius, what he wrote in his legendary notebooks he wrote in the language and notation of mathematics, not the poetry of the mystics.

(c) When we engage in fuzzy quantum kung-fu, we are being dishonest, corrupting both spirit and mind. Remember that every 'author' who tries to give a scientific gloss to mystical insight does so only with the known, only with existing science and even that, only partially. These texts speak evocatively of vibrations and pulsations and blackholes and space-time, of atoms and quanta, but they leave out the mundane details of spectroscopy (responsible for the origins of atomic theory). They leave out the unfamiliar. It's all about cosmology, but not a peep about Surface Plasmon Resonance or Phonons. It's always a retrofit.

Ask yourself why these writers hew to the fashionable and the familiar.

 

Why am I writing these posts, when I know exactly where all this is going?

I know where we are headed. Eventually this thread will peter out like all others. We will agree to disagree and generously grant one another our entitlement to our opinions. So why persist?

Here is one imaginary answer:

When the great scientific revolutions took place in Europe, India was not a player. She was not ready. Colonial domination then brought a break with the past and an uncertain relationship to the future. Now there is a chance - a glimmer of hope in every young aspirant slaving for her JEE - your sisters and daughters, brothers, sons, nieces and nephews. As latecomers, it might be useful to think carefully before squandering another opportunity to participate in the great enterprise.

A few hundred years ago, confident Europeans set their flags wherever they wished to claim the land for king and country. Now this is about to happen again.

If we survive our existential threats, there will be bases on the moon. Asteroids will be mined for their minerals. Richard Branson's Virgin Galactic (Mining Division) and Elon Musk's Space X and Orbital Technologies' astro-mining groups will plant a flag on MoonBase XI to claim it for flag, fun and profit. Handwringing journalists will write passionately about how the moon and those other rocks in the sky belong to all mankind - but who will win you a seat at the table for the extraplanetary mining treaty?

And if an existential threat in the form of a wayward asteroid were to come looking for us, as they have done every so many million years in the past, who will save us from the impact, from going the way of the dinosaurs?

Not the explicator of the Spanda-Karikas I assure you.

It will be some of those ecstatic engineers and physicists in their silk sarees, the ones celebrating Mangalyaan, the ones who speak mathematics.

 

This is true although I don't agree with the conclusions you try to derive from it. The limits of science is a great epistemological debate! You might enjoy the article linked in post #13.
:cheers

 

Somewhat related to this idea of retro-fitting is the recent discussion about Flights envisaged by sages during vedic times.

And here is what Prof. Mukunda had to say about it..

Science meet didn

 

All I was trying to say was that in a purely scientific sense the 'atom' diagram is almost content-free & thus the superposition with the Nataraja image is meaningless. I have seen those kolams / rangolis. They may have a ritual, symbolic and religious meaning as chakras, yantras or mandalas. My problem lies with the dubious conflation of science and religion / mysticism, especially of the 'rishis knew quantum mechanics' kind.

There are many people who hold this view, including prominent and distinguished scientists such as Francis Collins, the chief of the US National Institutes of Health. The crucial point to remember is that he keeps those beliefs out of the lab, which is all I ask!

The late Stephen Jay Gould, a distinguished paleontologist in his lifetime, took the view that religious ideas and science were separate non-overlapping magisteria (NOMA).

With its funding initiatives, the 'John Templeton Foundation' actively promotes this idea of a link between divinity and science, in an attempt to reconcile science and religion. You might find the discussions interesting!

Here are a some links (hey, a pun!) from the Templeton Big Questions Essay Series:

Does science make belief in God obsolete?
Does the universe have a purpose?

For an argument for the reinvention of the link between science and divinity see:
Reinventing the Sacred, by Stuart Kauffman, a distinguished scientist / theorist / physician.

 

Dear @sokanasanah ,

I am impressed by your anxiety particularly of India being not in the forefront of Modern Science. Unfortunately this due to our poverty a result of 1000 years of exploitation.

Some of us find comfort in past glory. Some of us find our centuries old intellectual property/credit being stolen and being displayed as some body else's. This includes who say "Rishis knew quantum mechanics."

All claims may not be true. But who will champion the cause of the lost or stolen treasures of India not materially but also intellectually?

It is in the hands of people like you, who will generate and influence future Indians. People who have the advantage of being away from the day to day limitations of Indian standards of society and life. People who are the ambassadors of our great heritage. People who can recover the missing links of knowledge not only for India but for humanity.

I will just request you to have a read of the wonderful book "Pride of India" (A glimpse into India's scientific heritage) published by Samskrita Bharati.(www.samskritabharati.org)

Just to arouse your curiosity:
A Samskrit sloka in praise of Lord Krishna gives the mathematical value of Pye accurate to 31 decimal places! True, Read to believe it!!

The last page gives some points for your reflection and action. Please consider. You can contribute intellectually, I think.

Thanks for your posts.

 

@Suryakala Sister,

Sairam, I havent gone through the whole thread, sounds interesting but will take time, in the meanwhile the above quote kindled my curiosity ... Which book is this... Thanks in advance.

May Baba guide us always

 

Dear @Saisakthi Sister,

I have given the name of the book in the post itself.

The name of the book is "Pride of India" (A glimpse into India's scientific heritage) published by Samskrita Bharati.(www.samskritabharati.org)" (page 21).

This is a great work which I think should be completed as a compulsory study in 8th 9th 10th classes of Indian curriculum along with Modern Science.

You have a love for and background of Mathematics. It should be very interesting for you to read the section on Mathematics.

Of course it has got sections for every field including Astronomy, Anatomy, Surgery, Embryology and Obstetrics......and many others.