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One of the deepest verses of Gita is Bhagavad Gita verse 2.16

Discussion in 'Chitvish on Hindu Culture & Vedanta' started by Chitvish, Dec 6, 2007.

  1. Chitvish

    Chitvish Moderator IL Hall of Fame

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    In 2.15, Krishna explains, who can attain immortality.

    Yam hi na vyathayanyaethae, purusham purusharshabha
    Samadu:khasukham dheeram, sO(a)mruthatvaaya kalpathae 2.15

    Oh Arjuna ! That person whom these (sense organs and objects) do not disturb, who is equanimous in pain and pleasure and who is wise alone becomes fit for immortality.

    Dheera, here, means one who is discriminating, one who has knowledge of the nithya-atma. The word panditha used earlier is replaced by this word. Wisdom lies in stoic endurance of fleeting experiences. Equipoise in the midst of conflicting experiences is the hallmark of maturity and is the gateway to moksha, immortality.

    The next verse is very peculiar and important.

    NaasathO vidhyathae bhaavO naabhaavO vidhyathae satha:
    UbhayOrapi drushtO(a)nthasthvanayOsthathva dars(h)ibhi: 2.16

    There is no existence for the unreal. There is no non-existence for the Real. The truth of both these is indeed known by the seers of Reality.

    This is one of the deepest verses of Gita.
    Asat means something that does not exist independently and
    Sat is what exists independent of anything else.
    Satyam is a thing with intrinsic existence and
    Mithya is a thing with borrowed existence.
    Intrinsic nature is permanent and incidental nature is temporary, borrowed and subject to loss.

    In Vedanta parlance, pot example is typically given. The word “pot” reveals an object that depends on its existence, on clay. It has no existence apart from clay. That which depends upon something for its existence, that which does not independently exist is called asat. Anything that is time-bound like a pot will change (break) and you cannot stop it because its nature is to keep on changing. Knowing that it is not eternal, why cry for it ?

    Sat is that which never changes and hence cannot create a sorrow for you. Sat is never negated at any time and hence cannot create a sorrow for you.
    In the vision of the Veda, you are the sat and everything else is asat.
    Asat cannot be a source of sorrow to sat and sat cannot be a source of sorrow to you, because it is You.
    Thus the jnani is very well aware that the Self always exists and the world is like a mirage . He rejects the names and forms and takes the underlying Essence in all the names and forms, that is sath-chit-ananda.
    So, what is changing must be unreal.
    What is permanent must be real.

    Love,
    Chithra.


     
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  2. Anandchitra

    Anandchitra IL Hall of Fame

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    Re: One of the deepest verses of Gita is 2.16

    The difficulty is seen in the very first line
    That person whom these senses do not disturb
    Try as I might I get disturbed by the sense organs be it as simple as
    eating or smelling or bigger things as anger and such
    So do I need to read further as the goal seems impossible to
    achieve in this lifetime
    Yes I want to read further maybe there is a chance just a small chance
    that in some birth I am might get moksha
    so continuing to read...
    The lines
    There is no existence for the unreal. There is no non-existence for the Real. The truth of both these is indeed known by the seers of Reality
    Since I read Bhagavan Ramana's work I can somewhat relate to these lines. To say I completely understand will be the height of conceitedness.
    But you have explained so well.
    using Asat, Sat, Satyam, Mithya ..
    Like the pot example, cloth can also be taken. If all the thread were to be lossened and lost then the cloth does not exist .
    These lines are also of great value:
    Asat cannot be a source of sorrow to sat and sat cannot be a source of sorrow to you, because it is You.
    This whole is revolving around that fact of "I" and how the "I" relates to the world and how the world relates to "I".
    What changes is ofcourse not real. Like the screen where the movie is played. the screen exists before and during and after the movie. the movie just comes and goes while the screen continues to exist.
    Hope I am on the right track.....
     
  3. Chitvish

    Chitvish Moderator IL Hall of Fame

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    Re: One of the deepest verses of Gita is 2.16

    Dear AC,
    A WOW to you for the Feedback at the speed of light!

    You started off, not too confidently, but ended more confidently, I am relieved !
    Getting disturbed by the senses - it takes janmas to overcome, so don't worry. I am sure, any exponent of Gita has all these in some measures, may be in a lower measure than us, laypeople. As I always write, awareness makes a beginning.

    Your last para is very correct. Just like on a movie screen, pictures come & go,leaving the screen unchanged, the Self (atma) just continues, unchanged.You have written
    What changes is ofcourse not real. Like the screen where the movie is played. the screen exists before and during and after the movie. the movie just comes and goes while the screen continues to exist.
    Hope I am on the right track
    .....
    This proves you are on the right track & only on the right track, AC ! It does take a lot of maturity to understand this.
    Love
    To
    Chitra
    From
    Chithra.
     
  4. Shanvy

    Shanvy IL Hall of Fame

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    Re: One of the deepest verses of Gita is 2.16

    hi chithmam,

    I am still trying to understand..have understood the gist...between you and AC. So i am just leaving myself open for more..............
     
  5. Chitvish

    Chitvish Moderator IL Hall of Fame

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    Re: One of the deepest verses of Gita is 2.16

    Dear Shanthi,
    You are yet another delight to me, with your prompt FB.
    Please don't think, I am in a hurry for FB - I am happy with just an acknowledgement, the topic being so deep.
    Please take your time, any length of time to chew it.
    But these are the verses that make Gita, our special scripture, rather the essence of Upanishads, as my teaceher says.
    I cannot thank you & AC, enough, Shanvy!
    Love,
    Chithra.
     
  6. Kamla

    Kamla IL Hall of Fame

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    Re: One of the deepest verses of Gita is 2.16

    Dear Chithra,

    Glad to see you bringing the lines of Gita here and spreading its essence.
    Thoughts that bothered AC used to bother me too. I succumb so easily to worldly thoughts and pressures, is Gita for me? Soon enough, I have understood that Gita is exactly for people like me. It surely strengthens your perceptions and guides you with its silent teachings. When one begins to understand its value even slightly, it seems to color your thoughts, even if only minutely.
    "Wisdom lies in stoic endurance of fleeting experiences."
    Such wisdom would be the greatest gift to anyone. Only, it is not easy to achieve, but we can strive towards it.
    Thanks for finally bringing Gita to IL.

    L, Kamla

     
  7. Chitvish

    Chitvish Moderator IL Hall of Fame

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    Re: One of the deepest verses of Gita is 2.16

    Dear Kamla,
    Thanks for an early feedback like "good old days" !
    There always used to be a trace of doubt in your feedbacks, about accepting Gita, which made me wonder, if I was failing to express it clearly.
    Your words
    I have understood that Gita is exactly for people like me. It surely strengthens your perceptions and guides you with its silent teachings. When one begins to understand its value even slightly, it seems to color your thoughts, even if only minutely.
    Have made my mind rest in peace.
    Yes, the understanding comes very slowly, very gradually, but a beginning has to be made.
    Thanks for a reassuring FB.
    Love,
    Chithra.
     
  8. malspie

    malspie Platinum IL'ite

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    Re: One of the deepest verses of Gita is 2.16

    Dear Chits,

    Another lovely topic from you.

    Whenever I read about Atma being the reality and it never changes, I always feel, hope I get to see the Atma of my parents who have changed the forms. Where are they, whose form have they taken? Will they recognise me when I see them, may the KARMIC BOND will help to relate to them. Again, I am getting lost somewhere...

    Thanks to enlighten us with topics which is next to realities of life.
     
  9. Chitvish

    Chitvish Moderator IL Hall of Fame

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    Re: One of the deepest verses of Gita is 2.16

    Dear Mals,
    Thanks for the FB.
    You surely have got lost. Atma cannot be perceived. Only the sukshma sariram enters another body-mind-complex !
    It is unlikely - what you have written, as far as I know. I am likely to be wrong as well.
    Love,
    Chithra.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2007
  10. vidhi

    vidhi Senior IL'ite

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    Re: One of the deepest verses of Gita is 2.16

    Dear Chith

    I sure will have to read it again to understand the whole thing especially towards the last. After reading it I was thinking about the following sentence

    "Wisdom lies in stoic endurance of fleeting experiences. Equipoise in the midst of conflicting experiences is the hallmark of maturity and is the gateway to moksha, immortality"

    Even though the conflicting experiences are very brief moments most of the time we always make it something really very big out of it. Facing the situation with much calmness and confidence really takes time. But your posts are atleast helping me in a way to think on that line.

    Love
    Vidhi
     

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