Loveless, sexless marriages and EMA

Shyamalajh, I have read and appreciated many of your posts on IL. I am responding to some questions you asked in this thread. My answers are my own personal opinion, and what I imagine I'd do in this situation. It is not a personal attack on what you think, nor am I seeking to invalidate the choices you would make.

A father (for the sake of argument - I am not sexist and would apply the same principles to a mother) who does not love and honor his wife, the mother of his children, IS automatically neglecting part of his duties as a parent. Here's supposedly the most important person in his life, but it's okay to subject her to neglect and ignore all of her emotional needs. What kind of a lesson is that to teach his children? How is this a good father?

I don't think it is unreasonable to divorce for reasons of incompatibility. But then, I am not a product of pure and orthodox Indian culture. So we'll set that aside for now. I don't think divorce necessarily teaches a child that marriage is not important. But it may teach a child that the pursuit of individual happiness is sometimes more important than maintaining appearances or sacrificing EVERYTHING for abstract social constructs that may have outlived their usefulness. It may teach a child to strive for authenticity in relationships, and it may teach a child self-respect. And yes, it may teach a child that a woman does have a right to seek happiness ON HER OWN TERMS, not according to the dictates of society or her husband. I think those are good things to learn.

This doesn't make any sense to me. I am reading daily on these threads about wonderful, courageous women who have divorced their husbands (for whatever reason) and have to accept whatever society dishes out, good or bad. Society doesn't really put constraints on a person to this extent. After all, no one is holding a gun to anyone's head. It is a woman's choice to stay in a loveless marriage, and it is a woman's choice to start an extra-marital affair. She may choose the former to avoid stigma and shame in her community or society, but then she has to accept that there is stigma and shame in having an extra-marital affair, too.

I'm finding it hard to drum up any sympathy for a woman caught in this situation. It seems to me that the extra-marital affair is just a passive-aggressive way of getting what she wants. Why not be open about it, and get a divorce first?

And the financial support argument seems particularly outdated, in this time of alimony and working women. There's a strange, basic hypocrisy here of wanting something modern and self-fulfilling (the affair) while still pretending to be the obedient, people-pleasing wife of days of yore. I think it's not possible, or desirable, to live in this state of contradiction.

 

It is not harmful, provided we're talking about a true open marriage, where the parents live a life that fully encompasses this sort of moral freedom, and are able to justify and contextualize it for their children. However, it would be harmful if it is a secretive open marriage, while the couple puts on a charade of being a faithful couple for the sake of their children. It is the dishonesty that is the killer, always.

 

Does a bad spouse automatically turn into a bad parent?

 

No Riya a bad spouse may not be a bad parent but can be a bad influence on the kids.

 

Ansuya, same goes here. I like the way you analyze and articulate your views.

My education, exposure, financial situation are different. I would of course take divorce. But the women I am talking about are different. They were never given choices. They were taught that until they get married they will study as much as they could and once they get married they will try their best to live up to the expectations of their husbands and in-laws. They are not in the habit of saying this is not what I want and I have every right to seek so and so. They are conditioned to be submissive and just whine or seek their happiness in secrecy. If they divorce they will have to face a lot and they haven't developed that strength over time like I did seeking what I want by making choices freely and standing up to others for what I believe in or what I want. To do so is like a reflex for me. For them it is an uphill task. They never had that freedom. They can't make my choices. We are at different points on the track. Theoretically anyone can get into Harvard. But, we all know it is not equally easy for all. Most can't even imagine something like that is possible for them. That is why we have affirmative action. Theoretical possibilities are not always realistic choices. Exceptional people do make impossible possible. But that doesn't change statistical probabilities for others.
I am not arguing that EMA is a better solution than divorce. I am not justifying EMA. I am saying some people are stuck in loveless marriages and if they happen to find a loving person and feel tempted , it is understandable. God has been kind to me, but I do know a few women closely who haven't been lucky. They had to make choices that they know are morally wrong yet pragmatic in their situation or the only way to get a gulp of fresh air before drowning again. I feel sad for their kids but I hope they would understand and forgive them when they grow up.

I completely agree with your analysis. But in the case I mentioned, the father is well forgiven and is loved by kids. Love doesn't necessarily follow logic. They know that he is not a perfect father(How many of us can claim we are perfect parents, we can claim we haven't been consciously bad parent. that is it.) but he loves them and worked hard for them. They appreciate that. They prefer to have imperfect father over no father. Luckily, I don't think they learnt that wrong lesson. They learnt to appreciate what is right about him and forgive what is wrong about him as father. We can apply same logic to smokers, workaholics,etc. Too many parents to be condemned.

I also don't think it is unreasonable. but it is not as serious as DV,etc. That is what I meant. Yes, neither of us are product of pure and orthodox culture, that is why we can make choices that they can't imagine. But I would say, it is debatable whether it would teach a child what you said or to give up on marriage easily and keep remarrying hoping one of them will just work out without having to put in much effort.

Kids who grow up in ghettos surrounded by hundreds of gangs rarely end up in Harvard. Some do. No one needs to hold gun to their head most join willingly as they believe other choices to be impossible. I agree those who make the best choices despite the worst circumstances are commendable. They are super human/extra-ordinary. I am talking about woman who are failing to be super human. But I can't condemn them because I don't see them to be sub human. I feel they are just human. I can't condemn some one for failing to be super human. If I make that choice, it would be below par, I must be condemned. Because my conditions make best choices imperative. I repeat human behavior often is not logical but emotional. We act often out of our fears, insecurities and frustrations. It is human to do so. The value of a few sweet words is far higher to them than it is to me, who is secure in a satisfying relationship. BTW, the fact that they are writing their stories makes them privileged women. The woman, I am talking about can't speak or write in English. forget typing on laptop posting on forums. That is common Indian woman. hundreds of millions of them.

In hurry I didn't elaborate on what I meant by constraints. In Indian society, it is difficult to get one daughter married if another daughter is divorced. In the case I mentioned. The woman has a handicapped sister. It is difficult to get her married as such. Now add divorced sister. It will complicate her life. In Indian society a woman's acts can influence other's lives in the family negatively. That is the kind of unjust system that exists. Those are the constraints society imposes. Also, it would have complicated getting her own daughters married. I know this to be a fact. I know how much an aunt of mine struggled.

Best choices are not equally easy for all. Many settle for second best, third best,etc. If she divorced, it is highly likely that she would have been financially very dependent on parents with 3 children (not well educated, got married at 18) at least to a very good extent and her sister would have compromised on the groom even further. Her kids would not know their father. She is not likely to be able to get married again through arranged marriage. Having a relationship after divorce is not acceptable either. She will be expected to live loveless and sexless life anyways. Her parents are from a small place. She is not from some big city. BTW, this woman didn't have an affair. I am only hypothesizing what if she had.

I wish the system worked as neatly and efficiently as you say. Many women are not educated enough to get gainfully employed. It is easy for an unwilling man to get away not paying alimony and child support. Love and sex are nothing modern or ancient. They are basic needs. They are brought up by the old generation parents to obey the system and are not taught to face or beat the system. So, they end up cheating the system to fulfill their needs. They know it is not the right choice or desirable. That is why they hide it.

Ansuya, I understand your point. Your logic is correct when applied to people like us. These women I am talking about are different. They simply can't imagine making the choices that we make. They know what is the best option but they lack what it takes to make it happen. Not because they are looking for shortcuts. But because of the way they are brought up and other factors in society. Life doesn't really follow logic. What appears to logically follow often doesn't. It is likely to teach wrong things to kids by having EMA but not automatic and definite result. It is not as simple as light will go off if I turn the switch off. I don't see any need for spousal faithfulness or honesty in such marriages. Now, why do small kids need to be told about sex lives of parents? They may not be pretending to be loving and to be having sex regularly. In the case, I mentioned the man was at home for an hour or two during the day abusing the wife as much as he could. I can't imagine kids to be inferring their parents to be loving couple having sex regularly. They knew it was a broken home.

 

EMA is a big no for me... I somehow do not subscribe going behind and backstabbing, whatever the justifications be. For eg: Hypothetical situation- I dont like my husband, bcoz our marriage is a loveless, sexless etc etc one. Then I wud take a divorce and then marry whomever I want, or have happy random relations with known/unknown people according to my wish.

EMA is a big no for me.

 

Shyamalajh, thank you for a passionate yet perfectly reasonable rejoinder to my post. I understand most of what you're saying, but I still don't get the basic contradiction of staying in a marriage for the sake of decency, but having an affair, which is not. But like you say, perhaps in some communities, women are so disempowered that dishonesty is their only option when it comes to personal happiness. Either way, it's a trade-off, and everyone loses. Let's hope this ridiculous way of thinking (that a terrible marriage is better than a divorce) doesn't persist for much longer. It's 2013, after all.

 

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Great post Ansuya. I think along the same lines too.

I don’t know how many folks who commented in this thread have actually had an EMA. I’m sure most are not going to open about it even if they did, but my point being it is one thing to say something without experiencing and it’s another thing to talk about it after experiencing it.

The folks who suggest/tolerate EMA as a stopgap or even a long term solution, do they even know what it offers?

Let me list a few:

1. It starts as an innocent no strings attached physical session

2. Sex will be great

3. Then the sessions increase

4. Then people start getting emotionally attached, start sharing “I love you”, “miss you”

5. They really start missing the other partner, even more than their spouse or family

6. It will be great to feel loved again, feeling that you mean a lot to another person, that you missed from your spouse

7. Another few meetings go by

8. Sex part is OK now, one of them will start realizing it is not as fulfilling as with someone with whom you can have an physical, emotional and intellectual connection, can’t have intellectual connection with a person with whom you can only spend an hour to few hours a week

9. Emotional part soon wears out and physical part drives a relationship

10. At some point of time, one will decide to get some fresh air while the other one still thinks and dreams that he/she has found his/her soul mate

11. A painful break-up will happen, leaving a huge void to the one who needed EMA, leaving them behind in more pain and misery than they were initially in the sexless and loveless marriage

For those who have not experienced it, it is exactly like “the grass is greener on the other side”, but the reality is not that. That’s why it is better to break off a relationship completely and start a real relationship, trust me that will be far more fulfilling. Flings are better than EMA, because both involved parties just want sex and they don’t have to see each other again. It will just remain as a good kinky memory.

As for the shyamalajh’s concern on the person she knows and the society, we have to realize that we cannot be a slave to the society. We can’t make our lives miserable for the sake of society. End of the day, we came alone, we leave alone, the satisfaction rests in how many lives we made happy, how did we serve humanity.

Shyamalajh, let’s say if the person did have an EMA, and somehow it leaked out, what will the society say then? Not only will the mother be known as an immoral woman, they will drag her daughter into it saying the guy is so lucky; he had both the mother and the daughter at the same time. What will happen to the daughter’s life then? Can we all assume any guy who gets in into an EMA with a married woman with a child, gets into it in the best of interests of the woman and their relationship? In many cases, no. Don’t we see how many MMS and scandal clips leaks out involving college girls, working girls, teachers, priests, celebrities and normal day to day women. How can any woman trust a guy getting into an EMA? A person getting a divorce is better any day than getting into an EMA in the eyes of the society.

If we take the moral aspects of EMA out and really start thinking what will we get from it, I think a person can make a better decision to get into or not.

 

And for the kids, what morals do parents involved in EMA teach them about marriage and commitment, the kids may end up growing it is OK for them to do it because their role models also did it.

In that perspective EMA puts a bad influence on the kids.