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Let us educate our heart, again!

Discussion in 'Chitvish on Hindu Culture & Vedanta' started by Chitvish, Jan 17, 2008.

  1. Chitvish

    Chitvish Moderator IL Hall of Fame

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    The Self is changeless and needs no evolution in Itself.

    Atma is free from the six types of transformation (vikara) such as
    birth, existence, growth, transformation, decline and death.
    It is indivisible and does not diminish in size. It is ever the same. The immutability of the Self (atma) is again stressed by the next verse:

    Na jayate mriyate va kadaachinnaayam bhoothvaabhavithaa vaa na bhooya:
    AjO nithya: shaashvathO(a)yam puraaNO na hanyathe hanyamaane shareere 2.20

    This (Self) is neither born at any time nor does It die (at anytime). It will neither come to existence (at one time) nor will It disappear again (at another time). This is unborn, eternal and free from decay as well as growth, (It) is not affected when the body is affected.

    Though atma is intimately connected to the body, whatever happens to the body does not affect the atma. Birth and death are for the physical body only. They cannot touch the immortal all-pervading Self. Thus we conclude that thus atma is Asochya, not a source of sorrow.
    The meanings of this and the previous verse are borrowed from Upanishads.

    Kathopanishad 1 .2 .18 says
    Na jayatharmriyathae vaa vipas(h)chid
    Naayam kuthas(h)china babhoova kas(h)cid
    Ajo nithya: s(h)aas(h)vathO(a)yam puraaNa:
    Na hanyathae hanyamaanaee s(h)areerae

    This omniscent one does not originate or die. It did not originate from anything. It did not become anything. It is unborn, eternal, decayless and growthless. It is not afflicted when the body is afflicted.

    Again this only goes to prove that atma is free from modifications and hence “nirvikara”.

    Then what is the phenomenon of death, we constantly observe all around us?
    Vasamsi jeerNaani yathaa vihaya
    Navaani gruhNaathi narO(a)paraaNi

    Thathaa shareeraaNi vihaaya jeerNani
    Anyani samyaathi navaani daehi - 2.22

    Just as a person gives up worn out clothes and puts on other new ones, so also, this Self gives up worn out bodies and enters into new ones.

    This oft-quoted stanza of Gita is universally famous.
    The body-mind complex (and not the Self) throws away the present body (and so its present relationships) and rises to put on again the most appropriate body in the most conducive environment, so that It can exhaust the vasanas.

    This verse re-educates us with a new vision and a total understanding of the world around it. It is the immutable atma which is behind and beneath life’s total play of change. This is unaffected by anything including death and destruction. We thus gain a new vision into the secret of living.

    To put in a gist again, the atma pervades all that exists; yet It cannot be destroyed – no one can kill the soul. From the beginning of time, the atma has dwelt in bodies. Though everybody is finite in size, the atma is infinite. Though everybody dies, the atma is immortal.

    If people think, the atma can commit murder, they are mistaken. If they think that the atma within them can be murdered, they are mistaken. The atma cannot kill or be killed.
    The atma is not born and does not die.
    Thus Krishna makes it clear to us that evolution and change are for the mind and intellect and not for the Self.

    Love,
    Chithra.
     
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  2. Shanvy

    Shanvy IL Hall of Fame

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    hi chithmam,

    Thanks for this post...it is really educating as your title says...
    The soul is not born, but, because it takes on a material body, the body takes its birth.
    (In one discourse i heard that the baby before coming into the mother's womb stays in father's heart for 3 months...used to wonder...is there any relation to the soul having decided the destination...sorry to deviate.....)

    The soul is always present in the body..only our understanding of it(self realisation) differs. My understanding is the soul is the same from birth to the death and another birth..(reincarnation?), it is the body and the vasanas that give the texture of change...an illusion of growth, maturity and everything....

    OMG looks like i am confused??
     
  3. Chitvish

    Chitvish Moderator IL Hall of Fame

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    Dear Shan,
    Thanks for being so prompt.
    You are not much confused, but......
    Atma (Self) is totally free from changes etc.
    It is the sukshma sariram that carries vasanas from one janma to the other.

    You write
    The soul is always present in the body..
    In fact it is only the Atma which gives the very life (chaithanyam) to the body.

    The excerpt about which, you have mentioned, is totally new to me ! This is the first time, I am hearing about it.
    Love,
    Chithra.
     
  4. vidhi

    vidhi Senior IL'ite

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    Dear Chith

    You are here again making us understand that the atma is not affected by anything. It is eternal.By knowing that atma is not affected by anything that itself gives a great relief that indeed whatever we do in this world is just a stage play. In the actual sense we are not pleasing, hurting any one nor some one is pleasing or hurting us. It is just our illusion. Am I right chith?

    But here again I have a doubt. Is the atma in one person and the atma in other person different. Is there any connection between the atmas of every individual? Did I confuse again on this point.

    Love
    Vidhi
     
  5. aishu22

    aishu22 Gold IL'ite

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    Dear Chithra,
    This post on Atma- was again so understandable.YOur reply to shan was even more crystal clear.Thank you for the education on ATMA.
    I'm trying hard to educate my mind and heart.Chith, now a a days i'm able to think and act so clearly.I am able to realise that i'm the only person responsible for all my actions.I dunt get angry for silly things.All these are because of the teachings that you post here and making it spoon fed! Thanks a ton....

    Chith, i have a query(sorry for deviating) I need to know the significance.

    - Why should we keep flowers to god everyday?
    - Should the wick of the swami deepam be changed everyday?

    Please take ur time.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2008
  6. Chitvish

    Chitvish Moderator IL Hall of Fame

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    Dear Vidhi,
    Thanks.
    Atma cannot be hurt - right. But our heart (kit containing mind & intellect) does get affected by pleasure, hurt etc.
    Atma is comparable (nearest to) only space. Again, the pot-space example.So there is no difference between eachother's atma. Our body-mind complex which encloses atma within is "I" ;hence we call my atma.
    I hope it is more clear, now.
    Love,
    Chithra.



     
  7. Chitvish

    Chitvish Moderator IL Hall of Fame

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    Dear Aishu,
    You are so young that I call you Aishu Baby. But your post is so mature !

    Offering flowers is like offering our heart to God in all its purity, innocence & love.Our heart is compared to lotus & we call it Hrudaya kamalam.Flower is the most natural offering from Mother Nature & hence is best as an offering.

    Yes, wicks are best changed everyday.Thereis no specific reason - but the deepam look clean & nice.
    Love,
    Chithra.




     
  8. mkthpavi

    mkthpavi Senior IL'ite

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    Dear Chithra..

    I am back in your Gita forum, after a hiatus...and am feeling (more or less) like my normal self, after doing this.

    This is a very deep message - that Atma is indestructible. I also liked the comparison of new clothes vs old clothes :)

    I have a question here....if Atma is pervasive, neutral to relationships and an embodiment of God Himself, then why do we, in Hindu culture esp, have the saying 'Atma santhi adayaradhu' and perform rites to ensure that the atma of the dead person goes to vaikuntam, instead of hell? Have we as humans, interpreted the concept of Atma wrongly?

    Please clarify, when you find time,

    Love
    Pavithra
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 17, 2008
  9. Anandchitra

    Anandchitra IL Hall of Fame

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    Dear Chithra
    Veyr nice clear post on some aspects of atma. Once I started understanding atma, it has become more clear. I used to refer to it as the soul and had some confusion before. I am really glad I cleared the doubts so to understand better.
    Thanks for writing on this topic and special thanks for progressing gradually.
     
  10. Chitvish

    Chitvish Moderator IL Hall of Fame

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    Dear Pavithra,
    Nice that you are back. I do miss all my regulars !
    Now, yours is a tricky question - I will answer to the best of my knowledge.
    In vedantic parlance, there is no such thing as
    'Atma santhi adayaradhu'
    perform rites to ensure that the atma of the dead person goes to vaikuntam, instead of hell?
    Some say
    sivapadam adaindhar.

    I think, they are all to suit the level of our general understanding.
    Once the person is dead, his sukshma sarira leaves the body. For Hindus, samskaras called Anthyeshti is performed. He is called or considered "pretha" till the 12 th day, when he is included in the pithrs.
    This is all for the sukshma sarira &not for the atma.
    I have just bought a book on Anthyeshti. I will explain, perhaps better, after reading it.
    But nothing affects the atma; we are repeatedly learning it is immutable, indestructible etc.Whether we wish "may the soul rest in peace" or not, atma is always at peace !

    Love,
    Chithra.







     

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