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Kindergartner Troubles At School

Discussion in 'Schoolgoers & Teens' started by gamma50g, Oct 31, 2018.

  1. gamma50g

    gamma50g Gold IL'ite

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    Hello, I am writing to discuss my concerns about my 5-year old daughter.


    We recently admitted her into a private school for her kindergarten. It has been about two months of school year and we are now receiving complaints from her teachers that are quite concerning to us.


    Now, she is an academically bright kid. In her previous school (pre-K), she was well-ahead of her class and was also a teacher’s pet. In her current kindergarten class, she is also among the kids that did the best in the computerized tests finishing well above the class average. But when we went in for the parent-teacher meeting, we were welcomed with complaints about her social behavior. It was evident from both her teachers’ tones that they were a tad frustrated. We tried to get the details so we can understand the root cause better. Following the PT meeting, she was also sent to the office for another “incident”.


    Before I go any further, let me describe the complaints and incidents; The teachers felt that

    • She was a very defiant kid who does not want to follow rules. Their “observation” was that DD thinks that the rules don’t apply for her.

    • She seems to have the attitude that she knows everything that is being taught in the class. She does not wait for the teachers to go through the lessons and worksheets. Instead, she is off reading the worksheet and completing by herself. As she has not completely mastered reading skills for her age, she does make mistakes in comprehending the questions and answering. But that does not stop her from quickly completing the worksheets. On one day, she also completed her homework sheet in class while the teacher was walking the rest of the class through their class sheet. Now, in this case, she did answer all questions right. However, the teacher refused to correct it, struck the page out completely and asked her to re-do the sheet at home. [Parental note: While I recognize that this is to make my daughter follow instructions, I did feel that this action was discouraging my daughter from giving her best. I felt that the teacher was effectively discouraging our DD from being curious. Perhaps a parental view, but I am articulating my first reaction upon seeing the struck out sheet.]

    • The teachers have not given my DD the “challenge pack” that they are distributing for fast finishers. The rationale is that DD is not responsible yet to know when to stop the challenge pack and focus back on the work in class. DD wants the challenge pack, but refuses to (or is afraid to) ask the teacher for the challenge pack. This is where she is displaying signs of not caring. The teachers have told her they don’t want to give her the challenge pack until she can listen. Her reaction, instead of conforming, is one of nonchalance.

    • When my DD told her teacher during some conversation that her parents say she’s the smartest kid, her teacher told her that she is not the smartest kid and that there are many others smarter than her. This particular comment made by the teacher is particularly worrisome for us.

    • Lastly, she got sent to office for repeatedly breaking the rule of not eating others’ snacks. On the third occasion, she grabbed a snack from another kid (her friend who didn’t mind). The teachers sent her to office, and she was given a talk on allergies etc which she seemed to understand. It seems to me that the office visit was more due to a constant pattern of what they perceived as defiance vs this one act of eating her friend’s snacks.

    Academically while other kids at her class are struggling with alphabets, she is at reading level 4.


    My husband and I are struggling to dice the issue. We want to resolve this in a manner that takes the least toll on our DD while putting her on a path that positively channels her skills and persona.

    1. We do observe that she has a hard time following instructions; At home too, we have to enforce multiple times in various tones before she does something we ask her to. Given the positive reviews from her previous school, we were assuming that she was OK in school and that she was taking liberties with her parents. But the current feedback implies she is pushing the limits of her teachers as well.

    2. On the flip-side, we have also observed that she does better when she is encouraged with good/kind words versus being told by rules.

    3. The teachers have articulated that grades are secondary to personality development. We are absolutely aligned on that. We have consciously been imparting compassion and empathy in our DD and know she is very tender and caring inside.

    4. We are however unsure if the teaching methods in the current school work for our daughter. We wonder if her defiance is amplified by boredom (stemming from being quite advanced for her class) and/or the perceived “strictness”, rigidity and structure of the classroom.

    5. An example that makes us question the school methods is their deprivation of the challenge pack. I believe if the teachers give it to her along with the clear signal that they are doing so because they trust her, then we feel she will be more responsible and receptive to their methods. Instead, deprivation only makes her want to be more defiant.

    6. We have brought up her daughter to be very independent for her age; She is certainly more emotionally mature than a typical 5-year old. We have also consciously let he natural persona stay. She is not a conformer, and we didn’t want to drive that need for conformance in her. We recognize the need to conform to social settings (with the classroom being her first such setting), but at the same time don’t want her natural personality to vanish or be suppressed.

    7. We sent her on a field trip where there were parent volunteers (without us). On return our daughters chaperone told us that she is very independent and we must be proud of her.

    We are looking for suggestions on how to approach our dilemma. We need to root-cause the issue and are willing to make any change needed. We are very open to modify our parenting style or look for another school. But we need tools to assess our situation. So, I am turning to this forum with experienced parents for help.
     
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  2. Rihana

    Rihana Moderator Staff Member IL Hall of Fame

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    When a parent writes about a situation like you have written, it means the parent is well-informed, does research, and wants to do what is best for the child in the short-term and long-term. That is the biggest advantage parent and child can have. Kudos to you for having analyzed it so well and most importantly IMO with minimal blaming of others. You are singularly focused on finding what is the best for your child. I've spent umpteen hours in KG classrooms and talked about similar situations with many parents. This is my un-sugarcoated response.

    Almost 80% of kids in a good school district's public school or in a private school will be good academically. This will continue till 3rd or 4th grade after which more latent abilities come to the fore.

    Teachers will usually want to give a rosy picture and if they talk about an issue that means it is worthy of attention.
    Quite common. The reason behind classroom rules are sometimes not obvious to the children. Don't hit, don't run etc they get, but other rules they don't understand. The rules are in place because teachers have to deal with 15-20 five year old's for 3-5 hours and get them to do tasks.
    Happens. Kids do not read instructions and do not wait for those to be read by the teacher. But, it is important to learn to read, understand instructions, ask questions, and then start the task. From a practical perspective, if each child needs one instruction to be repeated, nothing will get done in class. In 1st or 2nd grade, teacher will simply put in trash homework with no name on it, for example. So, better learn in KG.
    Agreed that is discouraging your DD from giving her best. So, what was the teacher to do? There were let's say 15 other students looking on to see how she would respond. Classroom has more than enough occasion and opportunity for children to be curious and teachers in fact aim to make students in-charge of their learning. Teacher must have tried many other ways, and it must have been hard for her also to strike out the sheet. If she accepted the work, teacher's credibility and authority gets even more weakened.

    Teachers (and parents) have hardly any things they can withhold from children to get them to follow class or home rules. Once again, teacher has few other choices. If she gives her the challenge pack, DD will race through those sheets also.
    I did say at the top this response is un-sugarcoated. So here goes: Most of the "bored" kids in a classroom are not bored by themselves. It is hearing parents tell that to each other and on phone to mommy-friends that reinforces in the child that she is ahead of the class' academics and "bored" and not challenged enough. There are enough parenting articles that say do not praise the child himself, praise his effort or the task accomplished. Rather than worry about the teacher's comment (and they make many clueless ones!) you should think about the conversations at home. And, why did the child relate that to the teacher. Give it some thought. Kindergartners relate the darnedest family details in class. Why did your child want to share this. Was it a loving and casual remark made one time, or is "smartness" and "smartest kid" oft repeated at home? And, what could the teacher have told her in response? Such plain-speak from teacher is better than a soft response aimed at (over) protecting self-esteem etc.
    No, the office visit doesn't have anything to do with defiance or pattern. Allergies is a very serious problem in classrooms, and if teacher and school are not firm about reinforcing no-sharing rules, they can have a life and death situation in the classroom without even knowing what happened. "Repeatedly breaking" this rule --> visit to office is fair enough.
     
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  3. Rihana

    Rihana Moderator Staff Member IL Hall of Fame

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    Good definition of what you need and want to do. If both you and your husband are on the same page about this and both see it as important, that is in itself a big first step. Many parents don't have agreement on these things.
    So, now you know. You have to enforce multiple times and she takes liberties with you. 5 or 6 is a good enough age to ramp up the discipline at home while remaining loving and firm. It will seem at first like you are curbing her independence, initiative etc. But, it is not so. When some basic discipline becomes second nature, it frees up a lot of time and reserves of patience. Your energies get spent on bigger issues. I highly recommend the method and book called 1-2-3 Magic by Dr. Phelan. Go for the one for children aged 2-12. One of the best no-nonsense parenting books I've ever read. And I've borrowed these by the car-trunk loads from the library.

    Human nature. But unless you plan to home-school her she has to learn to follow rules. There is no two ways about that.
    Compassion, empathy are good but not related to and not substitutes for learning how to function in a group.

    Rules will be pretty much like this in most schools. Teachers have ways to keep advanced kids engaged. That is their job.
    You feel she will respond better if given the challenge pack. You do not know it from prior experience at home of giving her something she wants and she living up to the trust placed in her. So, even if you suggest it to the teacher, why would the teacher try it?
    "More emotionally mature"? That is parental pride speaking. Unable to keep her hands off others' food even after repeated warnings is not mature, even for a 5 yr old. Natural personality won't vanish. It will get better channeled to work with others. If she does a little better at following rules, teacher will most likely have her help other kids, or give her small tasks like file papers etc.

    My DD was like yours in some ways. Teacher denied her the chance to take paperwork to office which was a "job" many wanted. Around Nov, Dec, she learnt that some behavior means some "cool" things won't come her way.
    Treasure these. I have a few loving memories when strangers or other parents complimented me. I was tempted to tell them, 'you can keep my child." But these are not reliable evaluations of our parenting or our child in any way.
    Read the 1-2-3 Magic book. Peacefully and when not full of angst and frustrated. If husband is not the kind to read books, give him a summary. Pick a few things to follow from it. Do it consistently for 3 months. You will see improvement or your money back. : )

    If you decide to go with the 1-2-3 Magic method, tell the teacher also what you are trying at home. Just knowing that parents are trying will mellow her down a little.

    To watch one's child not get coveted things like 'challenge pack' is one of the hardest things to go through as a parent. The hardest IMO is child getting bullied or struggling to make even one friend, but being denied challenge pack when she has the academic ability for it is hard too. All these eventually default to "this too, shall pass." So, thicken that skin a bit, shrug those shoulders a little. All will be well. : )
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2018
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  4. 1Sandhya

    1Sandhya Platinum IL'ite

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    If I were you I would change the school. Your daughter is not being challenged appropriately. She appears to be incorrectly placed in the wrong classroom also. This school seems to be more hellbent on enforcing its rules than helping the kids it seems. Challenge pack issue seems petty. If she continues there, the problems will worsen. Since you have already decided to go the private school route you can do much better so why are you paying for this? Take her elsewhere. Also get her tested soon, she appears to be gifted.
     
  5. gamma50g

    gamma50g Gold IL'ite

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    Rihana, I appreciate the thoughtful and detailed response to my post. A lot of your points resonate with us. We plan to give 1-2-3 Magic a try.

    1. Interesting data point on latent abilities coming to the fore in the 3rd/4th grade. Setting aside parental pride (which as you rightly point out is aplenty around our house:)), we found that DD is performing much above the class average (even despite the fact that this is a private school). Class average in the computer tests was < 30 on a scale of 60, and DD scored 55+. She is ~2 grades ahead on Math and Reading. So, we do not want to discount the boredom. In your experience, is this nominal performance or one that requires our special attention?

    2. That said, she certainly has an issue with obedience as we have seen at home. That needs to be solved, and your recommendation is one we will certainly try.

    3. We have definitely been seeing this from the teachers' perspective as well; so I recognize why they are deploying the deprivation tactic. We worry if that is effective with our DD.

    4. We also don't want to lose sight of the fact that the feedback from her previous school was uber-positive. In your experience, should we be discounting the positive feedback because it was from a lower class? Or is that important context for this discussion. We are looking for guidance there.

    5. You are right about "praise". We do pat her in the back for her good work (& not just the effort). We openly appreciate her art work etc. She has also been exposed to guests/friends being "wowed" by her paintings. These may have given her a superiority complex. We will try to moderate this.

    Based on your response, you don't see a causality between #1 and #2. We do want to resolve #2 and are willing to try different things. Our hope is that solving #2 will then let us peek into whether the "challenge" angle is an issue. Would you recommend that we try to get her evaluated for "giftedness" or is that moot? We certainly don't want to do the mistake of placing our DD on a pedastal, but also don't want to leave any stone unturned.

    Thanks again!
     
  6. gamma50g

    gamma50g Gold IL'ite

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    Sandhya, Thanks for your response! Much appreciated. We are contemplating getting her tested as well. We want to approach this methodically. We can easily switch schools, but we also don't want to find ourselves in the same situation in our new school. We will monitor the situation in her current class. We certainly do not also want the teachers to build on this initial negativity. So, we are looking at ways to alleviate their concerns about her obedience.
     
  7. 1Sandhya

    1Sandhya Platinum IL'ite

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    Hey that’s fine if that what you want to do. go ahead but there is only so much you can do. Just know that they are using big big words like behavior problem, discipline trip to office for what are v small things. This is a kindergartner for god’s sake! These big words go into reports and mean something.

    You can placate them if you wish but the longer this drags on the more info they will compile in the report that will go to her new school. And a behavior report is required FYI. So if I were you I would move on this sooner than later.

    It was nearly couple decades ago but I was in your exact situation with similar issue for my older one. Incorrect placement was our issue. I don’t want to get into personal details but I have been in this situation and I was able to solve it.

    You can work with this school and their concerns but all said and done I feel your basic problem is that your daughter is reading at grade 4 level and being forced to learn alphabets all day. And being punished for expressing boredom. The rest of the issues you listed, learning to share, pat on the back etc sure they are important and you do have to address them as we all do for all our kids. You will have to decide which you want to prioritize.

    Yes of course you just can’t move her to ‘any’ school you have to do due diligence. You can go back and talk to her previous school and get some pointers from them. Luckily this is the time of year private schools start advertising and having open houses etc. so your timing is good. The better schools will have informational stuff parents you can talk to and so on. Just ask them at the open house. You can even ask them upfront about placement etc. good luck!
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2018
  8. mangaii

    mangaii Finest Post Winner

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    Too many labels for Kindergarten kid - Independent, matured and smart . How is the teacher supposed to accept one kid as smart ? The fact that you are not happy with the teachers response shows you need to change your attitude towards her intelligence. Drop the labels at home.
    Kindergarten is way too young to get tested for gifted students.
    Looks like she gets lot of attention at home by constant praises and she is deprived of the same in school setting and hence she is acting out.
    You need to slow down on teaching Math and English. It doesn't matter how much ahead they are eventually the kids even out. Discipline and following instructions in group settings are essential skills irrespective of any schools unless you are planning to home school. Tone down the patting on her back part.Keep life simple. Involve her in some group activities with either you or her dad as volunteer and reiterate the need to follow the rules. Challenge pack will not fix any of your existing problems. In fact it will worsen the situation. School did the right thing to call her to office for incidents you described. Follow Rihana's advice and work on her discipline part . Good luck
     
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  9. Rihana

    Rihana Moderator Staff Member IL Hall of Fame

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    gamma, I have already posted chapter-book long responses. :facepalm: Response to your follow-up questions will need me to look up current recommendations of age for gifted testing, what type of gifted testing to go for, how/do private schools take care of gifted students, how reading and math abilities are currently tested, how use of iPads and technology in KG has changed learning and teaching, and so on.

    My experience is quite some years old. For example, when my DD was in KG, I felt bad that I was one of only SAHM's to send store bought cup-cakes while other moms sent fancy home baked cakes. Fast forward to now, when I visit the same KG classroom and same KG teacher, she tells me how strict the school is about no sharing, and no home-made food, and plenty of restrictions on store-bought food too. I thought the precautions were overkill in a time of trigger-happy suing by parents until I learnt just how quickly a child can die from eating or even inhaling the most innocuous of ingredients from popular children's snacks:
    Food Allergy Bullying Leads to Death of 13 Year Old Boy, Arrest of Another | SnackSafely.com
    Family shares tragic story of child lost as food allergies skyrocket

    For now, without looking up the things I listed above, without finding reliable links to support my suggestions, I can say this:
    - By December of the school year, most primary grade children fall in love with their teachers. : )
    - Understand why the office visit happened and how serious that was.
    - for now, try the 1-2-3 Magic method consistently and check out a Russian School of Mathematics nearby. Ask the teachers in RSM what their most talented 6 year old's do.
    - Keep discussing with husband and reading up about conformance and subduing her personality and curiosity. As part of that, take a look at math competitions like Math Kangaroo, look at what local public, private schools look for in their science fair projects.
     
  10. AppuMom

    AppuMom Gold IL'ite

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    Food allergy is a serious thing.I know one student died due to allergy.This rule to be strictly followed.Who will be responsible if a child fall sick due to sharing of food at school.

    We seeing only our child but teachers see 20-30 kids every year.Teachers may term the 'smartness' based on the behaviour , helping mentality,compassion and team spirit and not based on the math or eng skills .So understand this perspective.A child should know there are smarter people out there in the world and learn how to learn from them and remain humble. Parents should show this reality to the kids and tell them you are smart but there may be smartest kids which your teacher had seen before.Encourage your child to be teacher's assistant like carrying register for her , cleaning up her desk ..She will surely enjoy her days.
     
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