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is premarital sex right?

Discussion in 'Intimacy' started by anurajiv, Jan 7, 2010.

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  1. shyamalajh

    shyamalajh Gold IL'ite

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    People can usually make independent decisions, stand up for themselves and make judgemental people stupid, when they are truly independent in the sense they can face all consequences by themselves. But how many young ones can do that in case things go wrong. Hypothyetical possibilities are one thing making practical and responsible decisions is one thing. Is sex with the partner right away without full commitment by marrying is worth it or not is the question.
    BTW, extra marital affairs are not illegal .People are free to do so. People with true freedom may enter into open marriages. But many feel it is morally wrong, and think the other partner deserves apologies. Legally speaking the other partner has no right to judge either (only right is to divorce)but many think the other partner has every right to know, judge or warn such actions will be punished. What of rights of parents who support(not just financially) these yougsters more than spouses in many cases(working women).

    I am not trying to convince anyone of anything but just loudly thinking from both sides. Also Is this really about freedom and women's rights.

    Also many quote a few temples and Kamasutra as signs of a society with sexual freedom. There are plenty other literature that tells otherwise. May be not that simple.
     
  2. Malavika81

    Malavika81 Bronze IL'ite

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    Yes people make mistakes and yes they make stupid decisions. We all do. But usually the people who are judgmental on other people's lives and morals do not contribute or support the people who make mistakes which is usually the case.
    Freedom is not worth having if it does not include the freedom to make mistakes
    -Gandhi

    People still have extra marital affairs and no, it is not illegal in most democratic countries. I won't delve much into the morality of extramarital affairs, but when you married someone you took a vow to remain monogamous. When that is broken, it is a breach of trust in that relationship and it is up to the parties involved to resolve it the way they see it fit. I am not sure offering an apology or feeling bad is going to make an extramarital affair ok. But it may work for some but not all. And I am also not sure being judgmental comes under the umbrella of legality. What is the point of being judgmental after the fact that the trust is breached? Its just a futile exercise and all you need to be concerned about is the next practical step you can take to address the damage.


    Well most of the other literature that tells otherwise you are referring to were the results of that society adapting itself to compete with new world religions that started spreading in India which sold the idea of puritanism and morality and hinduism merely amended its philosophies to compete with them during the dark ages of that philosophy.
     
  3. shyamalajh

    shyamalajh Gold IL'ite

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    Malavika,

    Mistakes, wrong decisions? are you saying pre marital sex is a stupid mistake that needs to be supported especially by other women when committed by some? sorry ? please explain. I never used such judgemental words, they are meaning less. My point is those who can take responsibility for consequences of their actions alone have the freedom to choose those actions. Most youngsters will run to mom and pop if things go wrong. To know you are not at a stage in life where you are capable of taking full responsibility yet talking about independence in taking such decisions is not right. Do you know figures for teenage pregnancies despite all sex education ?(sex education is a different story , I believe it must be offered as an optional class like in USA) do you know how many teenage moms are single?do you know how many date rapes happen? after seeing those I am wondering isn't it better to postpone and not be casual about it and definitely not make it sound like something unnatural to be otherwise.
    BTW , malavika you judged people like us by saying it is some silly myth that will be debunked and we have behaved unnaturally and could be sexually repressed. I will try not to take it personally.

    extra marital affairs are not iillegal but are immoral in most people's eyes. why? It is definitely not just a breach of trust or contract or verbal committment, for most it is much more than that. Lying is breach of trust but causes far less trouble in marriage, Not being able to have children is grounds for divorce but no one thinks apologies are due. people commit saying till death do us apart but is breached for even incompatibility reasons (that too after living together for even years) with no apologies. Not same with EMA. Why EMA is so dreaded but it is wrong for parents to discourage PMSex actively? Some how I am not convinced. If love has no boundaries and it is only natural to have sex with some one you find attractive and love how does it matter whether you are married or not. Isn't it unnatural to fall in love with someone but wait for divorce? Fidelity is demanded even during legal separations? strange morals?humans are supposedly polygamous by nature according to most so is it unnatural of me to be monogamous? Is monogamy a stupid myth/law waiting to be debunked by Islam or something? Are we animals acting out natural instincts? Yes when in love natural progression is to sex, but is it really so necessary to act on those instincts without reality checking?Is it really such a huge problem to limit it to avoid unwanted complications. In my case it wasn't so. I can assure you I have normal libido if not more. My body too responded with same levels of hormones but is it imperative to act on those? I am in no way saying PMsex is a crime but it definitely is not something that needs cheering. Even in USA i see people are realizing it is a slippery slope the age at first sex experience is falling too fast and so are the # of misjudgements and nagative consequences and burden on parents of such irresponsible behaviour. Yet parents should have no say in this? doesn't sound fair. Are they supposed to say go have sex using protection and if you get pregnant don't worry i am there to take care of the baby while you go to college or work at mcdonalds and pay for you and the baby or we can just go get it aborted, even though i am strongly pro-life i will pay for abortion and be there for you because i love you. Long order.
    Please read Manu smriti it is before kamasutra according to most. I think you mean judeo-christian religions when you say new age religions. Manu smriti, geetha all these are much before the entry of other religions. New age religions are actually eastern religion influenced and very liberal. Liberals like to hide manusmriti and quote kamasutra and others like to hide kamasutra and quote manusmriti. I believe Hinduism had it's own moral code but still could have been more tolerant toward deviants compared even to Europe of 1930's. Read the case of ANNA and ISABELLA. They were children out of wedlock so were kept totally isolated from society. At 6 yrs age they were saved and were found to be making animal noises behaving like animals with no social skills. It shows horrible treatment of PMSex cases. Modern europe is not just a result of renaissance alone but also a result of hatred for catholic church and it's extreme repression in past. There is some element of rashness in that reaction.
     
  4. Malavika81

    Malavika81 Bronze IL'ite

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    Shyamala

    Pre-marital sex is neither a stupid mistake nor a wrong decision but rather natural flow of things. There is no prerequisite or natural law that the female species need to be married to have sex or even procreate. Sex is a natural urge in us as a species and when we reach that stage in life, those urges come naturally like hunger or other things we do naturally. It neither needs the support of other women and nor do I think these alleged other women are in anyway supporting the women who have pre-marital sex and slip and make mistakes except for maybe the close family. It is purely an individual decision and it should be left to the individual discretion and noone needs to support it or condone it as it is not some mortal sin or crime against humanity. Educating kids at a younger age before they reach sexual maturity will help them make educated and informed decisions about sex. And the objective of sex education is not just about premarital or teenage sex but also to educate about contraception and sexually transmitted diseases. India has a rampant AIDS epidemic and unofficial figures put the number of AIDS cases in India to be in par with Africa. Taking that into consideration, I'd think sex education must be made mandatory especially in India and the knowledge you acquire not just helps you to have pre-marital sex but it goes a long way into your adulthood. Teenage pregnancies happen because of a combination of people engaging in sex at a young age with lack of knowledge on contraception. And this phenomenon is widespread specifically in countries which do not teach sex education or view sex as some kind of taboo and explicitly prohibit it. What has date rape got to do with having premarital sex? I fail to see the correlation. A person who is out to rape you does not care if you are married or unmarried. Rape is unconsented sex and it has very little correlation to premarital sex. That is like saying getting married leads to physical abuse or death because there are isolated cases of people physically abusing their spouses or even killing them for dowry or other stupid things (a not so uncommon occurrence in India, sadly).

    I still stand by my statement that it is unnatural for a grown adult 25 or 30 yrs of age, male or female, to refrain from having sex. Just because individuals of certain societies conform to some made up societal norms or lack of opportunity to have sex, does not mean they do not have sexual urges or seeking opportunities to have sex. They just suppress those urges either to conform to some unwritten societal norm or sheer lack of opportunity. Anyone who says they had their first sexual urges only after they got married or contemplated about having sex only after marriage is telling porkies.

    I do not put much stock into the whole moral ideology as usually the people who seem to be obsessed about morals are not concerned about their own morals but other people's morals and usually this is the same bunch of people who have a lot of skeletons in their closet. Extramarital affair is a breach of trust between the two affected parties and it can be reconciled only by the affected parties and there is nothing moral or judgmental about it for an outsider. If my partner had an extramarital affair, it is just between me and him to sort it out and its not a spectacle for everyone to judge or cast stones. I will agree with you 100% on the 'humans are polygamous' part. Monogamy is not a natural trait of the homosapien species and it is something enforced by manmade rules. That is why I keep referring to EMA as a breach of trust or breach of contract because when you got married, you took a vow to be monogamous and you breached it.

    You know, interestingly you brought up United States as an example. United States is probably the most religious and least mentally progressive country among the Western developed nations and surprise, surprise...it leads the OECD countries in teen pregnancies LOL And if you were to take individual states in the US, the states that are the most religious(mostly southern US) and prohibit premarital sex based on religion and teach abstinence only as an alternative to sex ed are the same states which have the highest teen pregnancies. The number of teens engaging in sex is probably the same in both demographics but the one with less or lack of sex education and teaches abstinence are the same ones with the highest teen pregnancy rate :) So it is best to teach your kid about contraception and protection vs abstinence because that is the more practical thing to do. And that is what my parents did. Explained me the pros and cons of having premarital sex and emphasized on the contraception and protection part and they objectively explained to me how teen pregnancy can affect my future and also the danger of sexually transmitted diseases and they trusted me and my judgment to make the educated decision. I have had sexual partners since I was 17 but the difference was I knew about contraception and STDs and know what precautions to take.

    Yes, I was referring to the judeo-christian religions as new age (I meant to say new world religions) and mainly christianity and Islam which were the major rivals to hinduism during dark ages and both preached puritanical ideas, especially christianity.

    Most of your arguments against pre-marital sex are based on isolated and marginal statistics like teen pregnancy or rape or whatever other bad things are mere correlations and correlation does not directly imply causation. I could probably take all the negative statistics like bride burning or physical abuse or spousal abandonment against marriage and say marriage is bad or I could take all the accident statistics and drunk driving death statistics to say driving a car is bad but my argument would be very weak and carry very little merit in both cases :) Premarital sex is an individual choice and should be left up to the individual's discretion and it neither has any morality component nor has a social evil component attached to it. I hope I got that message across clearly which is what I have attempted to do in my past posts on this topic. Education is paramount when it comes to sex in the modern society, be it pre-marital sex or post-marital sex.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2010
  5. piscesy2k

    piscesy2k New IL'ite

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    Thanks a lot mithy!!
     
  6. piscesy2k

    piscesy2k New IL'ite

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    I agree hands down malavika...only thing is i think it is more sad than unnatural for any woman to die a virgin...Many indian women silently, secretly live a sexless early widow-hood or divorcee-hood which makes me so miserable..my friends aunt is one such unlucky lady who got divorced by an insensitive guy who was after her money within 2 years of marriage...he never as much as looked at her face throughout that period and slept with other 'female friends'..and she lives as if she has no hopes in life...what sort of life is it when you dont have a partner who loves you and makes love to you..i imagine sex as something wonderful and a beautiful part of being human when shared with the right person..It is a cruel thing that Indian society does by tabooing it for certain unfortunate people, mostly women.

    And for all people who find similarities between pre marital sex and extra marital sex, both are 2 completely different things!..extra marital sex invariably ends up hurting another person while pre marital sex does not, if it is not kept secretive
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2010
  7. Ansuya

    Ansuya Platinum IL'ite

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    I've been following this discussion with great interest. Here's a link to a related article, written by an Indian, for an Indian audience, in an Indian newspaper (I think!), so hopefully these views will be exempt from that hackneyed argument "this may be okay for/applicable to the West, but not for India".

    Stolen moments - People - Life - The Times of India

    The other thing that has always struck me as funny (funny ha-ha and funny ironic) about "that's how society/culture is, there's nothing we can do" arguments is how we act like "society/culture" is some nameless, faceless entity out there, completely divorced from us plebians on the ground. The truth is, WE ARE or make up society and culture. As such, it is entirely possible, and also sometimes eminently desirable, to bring about changes in society and culture, be it attitudes, viewpoints, or behaviours. And we are those agents of change.

    Of course, I still do think "to each his own". We should not judge or discriminate against someone because of his or her choices. So, choosing or not choosing to indulge in premarital sex should be an individual's choice. Neither stance deserves our pity or scorn. What is sad is that some people aren't free to make their own choices, and that's what needs to change.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2010
  8. Happysoul1234

    Happysoul1234 Gold IL'ite

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    Malavika good writing ... no awesome writing on your part!

    looking at the religious angle this is something I learnt while attending an all women's catholic college on the east coast ...

    before "mankind" figured out how women created babies (i.e. needed sperm), religion tended to worship the female form of god. if you look at pre judeo christian religions, you will see that they were all female god based. once they figured out that a woman needed a man to give birth, the shift occured and after that all gods were men. hinduism is probably the only surviving religion to have both male and female goddesses.

    based on history books I have read, sex was made tabboo by these patriarchial societies as a means of subjugating women and controlling the procreation process. by limiting sex to marriage, they made sure women toed the line per the man's wishes.

    and if sex is so wrong why does our country have the kamasutra ? I don't think all the men and women in these poses were married to each other! also in the times of the kamasutra women and men were allowed to have sex in and out of marriage. so if we are talking about our "culture" and our "heritage" then we need to keep this in mind too!

    before the aryan civilization in India, society was matriarchial based. women could marry as many times as they wanted and they controlled the passing down of wealth to the next generation. with the arrival of the aryans, this changed, but I think in some parts of south india, this is still the norm (kudos!).

    my point being that you cannot say ohhh our great indian culture and tradition forbids premarital sex and therefore it is wrong. you are only looking back a short time in history. go back to the pre-aryan society, the age of the kamasutra and you will see, people then were apparently more forward thinking than some of the people from today.

    and if you are talking about our great indian culture see how many ways we subjugate women and treat them like dirt - killing them at birth, not educating them, demanding/giving dowry, killing them for dowry, the practice of sati etc etc. no society is perfect, and just because it says something is right or wrong does not make it necessarily so.
     
  9. Malavika81

    Malavika81 Bronze IL'ite

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    You brought up an excellent point I have been trying to allude to in several of mine LOL I am always amazed when people say 'Oh that is how the society is and I have an obligation to follow its norms, however obtuse and absurd they might appeal to my logic and rationale, without questioning their merit or do critical thinking for myself'. That mentality is what creates a society of sheep or society of lemmings.

    Throughout human civilization, our greatest progress has come from questioning and challenging things not blindly follow a set of rules someone made up. People have these ideas hammered into their head at an young age and instead of questioning the merit of what has been hammered into their head when they reach age of reasoning, they try and flex the truth and evidence to suit what they have been force fed and accepted them without challenging and questioning them. Sadly, this is how most societies work and most people are comfortable being lemmings.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2010
  10. shyamalajh

    shyamalajh Gold IL'ite

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    I already said sex ed is good why do you keep repeating same thing. Ofcourse there are countries like greece, italy and Ireland which have no sex ed but have lower teenage pregnancies.obviously I am not saying abstinence only sex-ed so why all that writing? Please write only if idispute no need to repeat things that i didn't question or dispute. Thanks

    Again,I already said that sexual urge is biologically normal from the time of puberty. But you DON'T NEED man/woman to satisfy the biological urge. I
    didn't read anyone claiming to be adults with no sexual urges. where did you get that.Having urge for Icecream everyday is one thing running for it
    everyday and getting fat is another thing. No one said they don't have urges we do, just like we feel like beating someone on busy days. But I never beat anyone, that doesn't make me a person with no aggressive thoughts or urges(According to freud they are as strong as sex).Hope you get the difference between having urge and acting on it in a particular way(sex with another man/woman).As I said earlier "They could very well be biologically content(by using master--techniques, don't know if the word is allowed) but never met someone they trust to fulfill the psychological/emotional part. "About suppression of urges, don't know if you read freud, please read sublimanation.Was christ a sexually repressed individual? mast will any time prefer christ over many sexually liberated ones.Your sexual repression talk is half educated one please read freud fully.
    Please read my replies before you respond. I never said PMSex should be banned or they should be punished because it leads to negative consequences. BTW whether one marries or lives together, domestic violence etc happen so banning marriage doesn't help as it is not the cause, the batterer is.Teenage pregnancies will fall if we don't make it sound like it is mandatory to have PMSex saying it so NATURAL. I SAID NO NEED FOR CHEERING.LET PEOPLE CHOOSE.If a person who indulges in sex with multiple partners has names in India. A person who has no sexual partner in west is called LOSER.If this kind of attitude doesn't push teens to run for nearest guy, date rapes will reduce people will find it natural to watch and wait before trusting.Yes I know other types of rape exist, and they will continue, I didn;t say rape will be eradicated. chances for women to be safe will be increased. Both societies demand confirmation to their own norms.in west it is hammered in that sex is a natural urge that needs to be acted upon, if you didn't you either are weird or you are loser(lack of opportunity.)I am also saying these extreme notions need to be questioned just like PMSex is a crime needs to be questioned.Your mom
    explained and it worked for you, my mom told me abstain and guess what it worked for me. Good for both of us. but again we are not the subject.
    BTW you keep repeating the points that i actually never disputed like sex ed or PMSex is ind choice i never ridiculed people who choose PMSex though you ridiculed anything that is not you---religious , not have PMSex,USA etc. The whole talk of individual decision is just talk in your case. You don't obviously respect other's decision,natural instinct-- silly excuse.since you agree polygamy is natural and must act on natural instincts, did you have polygamous relations before marriage? or all BFs demanded unnatural monogamy despite all talk of behaving naturally,i guess(knowing your silly excuse of breach of trust, just like other's have society doesn't accept excuse), You limited acting according to natural instincts at PMSex others draw limits at different level, what's that talk of natural instincts?Just like you restrain from acting polygamous natural instincts others don't act sexual instincts for right time and right person.
     
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