Tridev, Please don't argue for the sake of it. A sexual relationship with 2 adults irrespective of gender is what we are talking here.. why are you bringing in Animal sex, prostitution, murder (may be soon).. Are you really sure you understand what we are talking here? I think you should take some time to understand that before jumping in a discussion. Please.
Tridev, I sense that the question you want to ask is this - Why do gay people want to get married? Why can't they live together as they are? I agree that they want the right to marry not because of any greater sanctity or holy perceptions, but because of the economic benefits. Two people cohabiting are not entitled to certain tax exemptions that married people are allowed to avail of. Also, health insurance can cover only a spouse, not a live-in partner. So, there are advantages that they can get from getting married instead of cohabiting. Now, the only question I want to ask is, why should they not be allowed to marry? Why is it our concern at all, as long as they are not taking away our rights from marriage? By excluding them from marital rights, does our lot improve? Are we going to eradicate homosexual thoughts by doing that?
The law about children's ages were developed using scientific research. At certain ages, a child is not mentally able to solve their own problems. And at 17, although they might be MENTALLY able, emotionally they're still not very mature enough to do so. I'll be the first one to admit, I'm much more mature and emotionally stable now than I was when I was 17. And probably in ten years I'll be even more ready to handle life's issues. There is a reason we don't expect 5 year olds to make life and death decisions. I think we can all agree there is a difference between a child's thinking ability and an adult's. In infancy, you can show an infant an object and hide it behind your back, and the infant will believe the object has ceased to exist. But do that same trick in a few months when they've had time to develop more reasoning skills, and their brain activity shows they realize the ball is now behind your back even though they can't see it. That's just a small example of how children's brains mature over time. You are right, there is no magic number of WHEN a child is fully capable of living independently from their parents. But generally, by age 18, they're capable of supporting themselves. There have even been studies about the effects of alcohol on people's brains... and youngsters have handled it more poorly than older adults. Hence the age for drinking alcohol in the US is 21 and not 18. The laws are in place to protect children from hurting themselves or us. Gay relationships and Gay marriages are another thing entirely. I believe we were talking about the former. Marriage is a religious institution, taxes are a civil one. You can have a marriage or a civil union. But that's not what we were talking about. We were discussing the morality of two people joined together in a homosexual relationship.
Here is what I think, but I'm sometimes swayed by a good arguement, so feel free to bring up a point counter to whatever I propose .... Most people view marriage as a religious institution. Most religions bar homosexuality. Yet, the benefits many gays seek are civil in nature (tax benefits, property rights, etc). So, why not give them the opportunity to enter civil unions... where they'll be granted full civil rights as married couples. The only thing that would be missing would be the religious aspect where it's sanctioned by a religious figure (i.e. hence it wouldn't be called a 'marriage'). The courts would call it a 'civil union', the super religious folks wouldn't be offended because it wouldn't technically be called 'marriage', and the gay couple would have all the benefits of a married couple. And, they could go for a religious ceremony of their choice at the church of their choice once they found a pastor willing to officiate the service... so then they'd have the civil aspect, and although not recorded in the county clerks office as a 'religious union', in their minds they would know they had been wed in the eyes of God.
Ah, ASG, If a Civil Union can promise all the legal benefits of marriage, then I think it should suffice. Like you said, marriage is a religious union, and the law cannot force religious heads to alter their code books. For their part, the Gay & Lesbian groups should not expect the law to exert pressure on centuries-old religions. Just like mainstream society has to take a step back and accept the idea of civil unions, the transgender community should also be more accomodating in their demands.
OP, I think this topic is digressing to CA Prop 8 (California Proposition 8 (2008) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) debate. I am ambivalent on this topic. But I can tell you one thing for sure. The views of parents with kids differ from someone who do not have kids or planning to have kids soon.
Yes, Ajith, Parents have a different view of things. I might uphold the rights of oppressed people, but may not allow my children to pursue a calling that I do not understand!! I hope that I will be be liberal enough to leave them alone, though. I understand that if a child or sibling or relative turns out gay, we might have a problem coming to terms with it. For one thing, explaining it to our children is a task. But my feeling is that if we attempt to hide it or try to convince them that it is not normal to have such feelings, we only sow the seeds of curiosity in them. Children, and especially teenagers, have fertile imaginations and peer pressure might make them interested in exploring such a relationship. If that happens, nothing we say or do can stop them. We can only hope that they are true to themselves and not experimenting just to fit in with the crowd.
ASG you have some really really good points...maybe you are a lawyer I'm sure in countries like India a civil union could be like a stepping stone to accept gay marriages or relationships since the soceity at large still does not accept such relationships and life is pretty hard and unfair to homosexuals. The person who started this thread would probably be called a 'homophobe' ...:rotflin the US....people who are scared of homosexuals...hahaha. Be a bit more broad minded for heaven's sake...i love the example where you imagine your husband to suddenly become a woman...would we have just vanished?? I dont think so!!! Its the bonding between two souls, two emtional beings that is in question here , not just the ability to 'procreate' or not!!! The only question I have in my mind are about bisexuals...are they natural or do they come into existence only due to things like frustration in life, drugs, peer pressure? I have heard of cases where teenagers felt the pressure to 'try it just once' with someone of their own sex, esp girls,...and that 'one time' becomes mutliple times...causing the person to be labeled bisexual, even if the person had a loving bf/gf. I sometimes think of bisexuals as confused people who dont know what they want in life and give in easily to pressures. So to an extent such sexual tendencies I feel, are not really normal , but I have no idea how they can be curbed or if there's a solution to it. Like I had a friend who told me about her experience in college. She had an older girl for a room mate who was pretty dominating. But at the same time she was supposedly very caring and many of the juniors 'worshipped' her for her good looks and smartness. One night they were just drunk and the older girl just got into bed with her and they touched each other sexually. Now this friend of mine didnt feel violated or anything she said she was confused and couldn't help liking her roommates advances!!! I couldnt help not feeling a little disgusted and thought she was just a confused soul esp since she's been in a pretty solid relationship with this other guy for many years and they were planning to get married. I advised her not to remain in touch with this room mate of hers if she was actually planning her marriage with her boyfriend. Out and out homosexuality is one thing..that is how God made them...but this bisexual thing somehow seems unexplainable to me!
If people dont buy your argument, you say they dont understand, you are the judge here? DO YOU UNDERSTAND what is being discussed, you talk of Consenting adults? Prostitution is not consenting between two adults? All my argument was just to throw light on many aspects of law, one needs patience to read, interpret and understand it..... If you are not understanding, how do you blame me to not understand.... PS: Why should law ban Polygamy? Consenting adults isn't it?
Sunitha, As the others have pointed out, it is not in our hands what our kids turn out. I havent really thought about it much myself with regards to my kid - wondering how he will turn out. I cannot also say now how I might react if he does turn out to be that way. However, I think we need to respect others and their choices without using words like "disgusting". They are human beings after all and have as much right to live and have a normal life (their chosen) as any one of us. And going back to the quote, if your kid does turn out to be that way, what exactly can you do to stop it? We can do our best by giving our kids good education, good values and directing them along the right path, the rest is up to them.
