Depression - myth, reality, or a little of both?

Discussion in 'Education & Personal Growth' started by Rihana, Feb 3, 2016.

  1. Sparkle

    Sparkle Platinum IL'ite

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    Trivialisation happens all over the world. Each of us is a layman when it comes to one topic or the other. A depressed person living in India reading this thread may get more depressed thinking that the challenge is more - only in India. While in reality, there are good ones who accept depression or mental health issues and help. In the past few years there is a steady rise in awareness and acceptance about severe problems, be it mental or physical and there are many who are willing to listen and help - all over. The first most important step is to reach for help in case the affected knows he/she is depressed. Or to look with a keen eye if anyone around us is depressed.

    Note: I am on your side w.r.t your views about depression.
     
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  2. Laks09

    Laks09 Moderator Staff Member IL Hall of Fame

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    Sorry, I disagree. Those of us who are able to are moving out to get to places where there is better awareness and acceptance.

    And the attitude that depression and other mental health issues can be made to go away and it's all in mental strength is something that I have personally heard time and again.

    There is a lot of good in the country but the MH awareness and acceptance isn't one of them.

    I agree that things are not what it was a couple of decades ago but it's still a major uphill battle for anyone who doesn't fit in the norm. Mostly for people who have issues, it's a choice between accepting and battling it out in the open or not accepting and fighting in private.

    The problem is with layman giving directions on issues they have no idea about and others following it.

    Btw - you did mention people in India reading the thread and feeling like it's a problem only in India. I'm sure people in India who have dealt with any MH issue and has subsequently lived in one of the western countries will say how huge the gap is. I don't want to delve into any more details.

    I'm not bashing the country. There are things I love and hate about the people of the US too.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2016
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  3. Sparkle

    Sparkle Platinum IL'ite

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    I disagree too. I have seen helping hands in places with better awareness and acceptance and also in opposite places.

    This is believed by many in western countries as well. Not just India. There are people who think severe mental health issues can be solved by taking medications all over the globe. There are parents who think their kids can get well by taking antidepressants or just throw them in a system that loads them with pills. Picking up a handful out of all of them and generalising will not eliminate the other lot with the same mentality living elsewhere.
    For instance, several people from well-developed countries speak about depression via youtube or other social media. Why not come out to their closed ones in person if there is widespread acceptance?

    I am not even talking decades, a lot has changed with such issues in the past couple of years. There are more issues, but there is an increase in acceptance and awareness as well.

    Then only professional marriage counsellors should be posting in relationships forum. Same way only professional chefs can post recipes here???!!!. A person with a bit of personal experience can be giving some right choices. A layman giving not so useful directions could be identified and workd on easily these days, thanks to discussion forums.

    The gap is definitely decreasing. Slowly, but steadily. Lets me just say I have seen someone experience it. Any debate shouldn't be topic in India vs topic in western countries, unless its exclusively specified.
    Even if things get way better in India, a general attitude that western countries have everything else always better will never go away, IMO and that is the real issue here.
     
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  4. Laks09

    Laks09 Moderator Staff Member IL Hall of Fame

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    These statements itself tells me you know nothing about the systems in place. Those of us with kids with issues of any kind do not think that medicating them and "THROWING" them in the system is the number #1 solution. And any sane doc in this country will tell you that medication is the absolute last resort for kids. Don't just throw out blanket statements that you have zero experience about. Do your research. I have done mine and am living the life. Sorry to not fit your mould.

    All of which is their experiences journaled right? Or is it a Swami sitting somewhere making some false claims that have no backing?


    Exactly how? I want to know. I was there in July trying to move back with my son. Sorry, not only is there not much awareness but zero acceptance in schools and in the community in general. Unless things have changed in the last three months, things haven't changed much when I moved out four years ago Vs now.

    Someone's mental health isn't a recipe that you can try and test. I stand by my statement. No Swami or layperson should be claiming that a person with mental health issue is acting out for attention and it's all in the head. Accepting that there is a problem itself is a big step in itself.

    Why not? I have lived enough inside and outside, with and without kids, with the specifics being discussed here to know and point out the difference.

    Which I didn't claim at all. I always maintained there are good things about the country. Mental health awareness isn't one of them. It is definitely better outside. And I have enough personal experience to judge for myself. The real problem is that people get worked up if anything negative is stated about India in any context. I think unless a vast majority of the people accept there is an issue, there is no reprieve for those who are affected by it. Those of us who have experienced the prejudice are happier not living in India. And before you rip me apart - you can go look up threads about India and returning that I have written up since 2007. I was very happy with everything else. But this is my reality. Sorry to tarnish your perception of the country but it isn't the right place to be for MH issues.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2016
  5. Sparkle

    Sparkle Platinum IL'ite

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    Who are you to judge me and my statements? Are you the only one with problems? You think I have a zero problem life? And my kids and family has no issues? I don't have to shout about every problem I have just to prove my experience or knowledge to people like you. And on what basis are you saying that I have not done my research? I never want you or anyone to fit my mould because I very well know everyone's is different.

    Side note: The throwing into system statement was in general. Not made at 'you'. You misread it.

    What one learns from their personal experiences is that trivialisation is everywhere. Thing are not trivialised in India alone. Every depressed person is labelled something all over, every depressed person has a hard time communicating it openly or even identifying the problem. The problems are all over.
    All my previous comments in this thread are towards supporting people with depression in an appropriate manner. I never talked about any swami. Save your comments for the ones who are on that side.

    Is there 100% acceptance in all US schools for special needs children? How are the special needs sessions provided by the public schools? Are they top-notch? Are they easily accessible to everyone regardless of race and colour? How is depression dealt in US? Do each and everyone walk out problem free after availing these better options?
    All these I have experienced in person. I am just not the one trying to paint a picture that everything is better and works very well when out of India.

    Again, I have nothing to prove to you. Yet...I know that dealing with mental health issues/depression are rising and in progress in India and I have found special needs schools. I have found a good number of occupational and speech therapists. I have been going to them personally and I have been taking those in need with me. I have seen families move from one state to another just for their special needs child and to get a treatment for their depressed families. I know parents who moved back to India and are continuing therapy since they cannot afford the high cost of sessions in US and UK. This was in 2015. I have had similar journeys outside of India. The options are more in the western countries, but its not like one can find a special needs school or a therapist in every nook and corner of the US or UK. Research needs to be done where ever needed. This is not a cake walk just outside India. Comparing everything with western countries and searching within India or vice-versa will not lead one to good results.


    I know that accepting the problem itself is the big step. I have quoted the same in different words before, not just in this thread but in other threads too.

    You talk about it because you have that option. This kind of discussion is not 100% healthy for a person who cannot move out of the country or state for that matter at any cost. There are severely disabled children who are not allowed to travel. There are people who cannot afford to travel ever. The more they compare and think that options are better outside, the less motivated they will be to try and make the best of what they have in hand.

    I know its better outside. But things are getting better in too. Things did not get better overnight outside of India. It will take time for us to get better and better. There are a lot of talented and sane doctors, who studied abroad and are working back in India. There are a lot of therapists who take advice from their counterparts in other countries and follow it. A lot has changed over 2007. We are facing a lot of issues, but there are solutions coming up as well.
    Acceptance should come from self first - it should not depend on majority or minority. Its easy to exaggerate the negatives, but not give even minimal importance to the positives. Why?

    Having said all these, you still have no idea about me, my life or my perception of any country. That's how it should be in a discussion forum. That will lead to a better discussion about the topic/problem in hand. It is not right to assume that others are not going through issues in life. I am only participating here to enhance my knowledge if there is a way and also raise a bit of awareness from my side about depression and other mental health issues. Any other comparisons and contrasts are irrelevant IMO and I stand by it.
     
  6. Laks09

    Laks09 Moderator Staff Member IL Hall of Fame

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    Which is untrue and demeaning. I did realize it wasn't meant to me. I used "me" but replace it with "parents".
    Btw, I didn't judge you but your statement - which has no basis. All I said was no wonder people have a hard time accepting they themselves have a problem in India rather than the west because of the social stigma. You were the one who brought in the drugging of kids by parents.

    I didn't understand the first line. People with personal experience, generally do not trivialize mental health issues of any kind.Yes, people with any MH issue has a hard time identifying with the problem. But in an Indian context, it's even more harder because of the social structure. It's the stigma associated that makes it harder

    There is no bias based on abilities, race, color and even immigration status for FAPE. I have my own set of issues with FAPE but acceptance/availability isn't one of them.

    I did not say that all problems go away outside India? I just said it's harder living within India. Why is that so hard to accept? Why throw in western parents and meds in the mix?

    Agreed. I was really happy with the three schools I came and visited, although we wondered how everyone can afford the high price tag. I'm also happy with the few people whom we met providing services. I don't have an issue with service providers. Nor am I talking about the numbers of people or the availability of people or their quality of service. Availability is a different criteria - one where I have the numbers.Lets not even go there. I am ok with whatever is currently there.
    What I'm talking about is the two schools that even have provisions for IEPs do have exclusion criteria. If the child has an IEP, then the child cannot do this, this and that - which are available for kids without the IEP. Things like inclusion aren't there. And I'm not talking about just schools/providers. How about "acceptance" outside those settings. When I'm saying acceptance, I didn't mean the school that agrees to take on kids with differences. There is a difference between keeping a child in exclusion and keeping him/her with peers. I was referring to this. And since you seemed to know about it, I assumed you knew what I meant. Sorry I wasn't clear.

    I'm not even talking about availability. And I'm not saying it's a cake walk for anyone. Acceptance and awareness are different from availability and funding etc. Lets stick to acceptance. Btw, I have no idea about UK.
    What I'm saying is acceptance in general - within the same school. Why isolate the kids in a "special" school?
    I'm not even denying that there are parents who have worked with very high functioning kids in regular schools and have worked the system. But the "system" - all together including things that happen outside of school/therapy is making it hard for people with mental health issues. When I say system, I mean it in terms of social set up. There is a lot of societal bias and prejudice and people have to work against all of it. It shouldn't be that way. It should be that the setup works with the people and helps them.

    I didn't say everyone has to move. I said I empathize with people who are working the system because of the system they have in hand. Again, by system I mean "system" as a whole. Not just schools.

    True. I never said services aren't getting better. Services are better than what it was ten years ago. I'm talking about "attitude". That has to change. It's definitely better elsewhere. That's all I was saying. Does not mean there aren't people in India with the right mind set. It has to expand, but right now, as things stand, it isn't what other countries are doing. I don't thing there is anything wrong pointing that out.

    A person with MH issues can function in a society but for that the support has to be there from the society. Acceptance should come from within but also support has to come from outside. What did I exaggerate?

    I didn't assume anything. The problem of social stigma was what I was referring to. And I didn't compare and contrast anything else except acceptance and support - which are needed for anyone with any MH issue to become productive. I don't see the magnitude of support, that's why it's harder for people living in India with MH issues - that's my statement.
     
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  7. Rihana

    Rihana Moderator Staff Member IL Hall of Fame

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    Sparkle, Laks, the thread has benefited from your conversation and the strong posts. Thank you. I can imagine the effort it takes to compose and post such responses. I have read them, but will have to read again to fully understand the experiences and information shared. Thanks again.
     
  8. Gauri03

    Gauri03 Moderator Staff Member IL Hall of Fame

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    ^That is the essence of the argument. I think we all agree on that, except we're saying it in different ways.

    Attitudes towards mental health problems are not ideal anywhere in the world, but wouldn't you agree that the West has a more enlightened view of mental health than India? Even in US we have our share of religious preachers and celebrities championing ignorant ideas towards mental health. But they are few and far in between, and they don't have the sort of following that Indian Babas and Ammas have. Combined with superstition and social stigma, there is very little support for people with severe mental health problems. Deepika Padukone and her ilk might have made a difference in the metros, but the moment you step into small town India you realize very little has changed. That is all that is being said here. It is simply an observation devoid of judgement. It is a fact that things in India are still not up to Western standards when it comes to mental health issues, be it with regards to services or societal acceptance. India didn't even have a national policy on mental health until 2014. (http://www.nhp.gov.in/sites/default/files/pdf/national mental health policy of india 2014.pdf)

    I haven't independently verified the stats below, but it's the NY Times so I'm inclined to trust them. Quoting from the NY Times -

    "India has the highest number of suicides in the world. According to the World Health Organization, of 804,000 suicides recorded worldwide in 2012, 258,000 were in India. Indian youths between 15 and 29 years old kill themselves at a rate of 35.5 deaths per 100,000 — the highest in the world — and suicide has surpassed maternal mortality as the leading cause of death of young Indian women. "

    I read recently that India has fewer than 50 mental hospitals for a population of 1.2 billion! And we do know what most of them are like. It is a sad state of affairs. Not everyone has the option to move to the US or UK, but given a choice we would all pick the best for ourselves and our loved ones. There's nothing wrong in accepting that. Doesn't mean that you love India any less.
     
  9. Sparkle

    Sparkle Platinum IL'ite

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    It is demeaning to talk about positive factors coming up in any place. There are groups of people working through all difficulties in India. Your comments are mean to them. And to me. Don't they matter?
    There ARE parents who believe several mental health issues can be solved by medications or by putting them in a controlled environment. In all places. I am only highlighting its existence in all places. I am NOT suggesting someone to do it. What is wrong with that?

    People with personal experience MAY trivialise at times to pass the hurt on - unknowingly. People without any idea about such issues either label it or suggest something irrelevant. People who understand other's personal experience or have learnt from their own experience will not trivialise.
    Like I said before many times, trivialisation is everywhere. The stigma is complex in India. But its not like a special needs person will be welcomed with open hands in western countries.
    Your comparison conveys that meaning. There was a time I heard this over and over again that western countries treat and accept everyone and everything better. When I got the chance to move, I did. With high hopes. The journey abroad has its own set of challenges.

    Its possible you have not faced them.
    Let me list down a few I have seen:
    - You need to be in the right place, preferably in a big city
    - Acceptance is a huge and complex process
    - There is not much control with parents when it comes to IEP. They can drop therapy sessions without consulting the parents.
    - Out of the blue a parent will be called for an IEP meeting and will be asked to drop the kid out of the school. No place for negotiation at all. Parents will end up running in circles trying to make things work over and over again
    - There is bias in several schools. Disabled children will not be accepted at all and even if they do, the ones of non-western origin will be kept in the waitlist. By waitlist, they mean we will be kept waiting forever.

    When I went for private sessions in India, it was hard to find them first. But once I did, there was proper communication on what is possible or not, what we plan to achieve together in a timeline etc. Private sessions abroad are in similar lines but I have met insensitive doctors who had 20+ years experience, yet labelled the patients openly.

    I am saying its hard to live with and deal with problems everywhere. There are parents who put kids on medications everywhere. Not just western countries. Check my previous post if you want to. I did not exclusively say western parents, see my previous posts.

    The price tag in India is more affordable than outside in general.

    I will not even go to the inclusion thing here. India doesn't have good public schools in place first. For things like IEP it may take about 100 years or more or never.

    People help when we help them. I have personally explained when someone understands. It is a challenge and its hurtful, but yes I do it. One can either choose to work with the system and get rid of the bias. Or work against the system and ignore the bias.

    Acceptance and denial, bias , support from within, is everywhere. Why highlight the positives in just one place?

    You are talking support in India vs others. I am talking support /bias/challenges regardless of the place. My motive when I visited this thread is to make everyone sailing on the same or similar boats to feel better and get a clearer view about mental health issues - no matter where they are.

    With a lot of hard work and patience, acceptance can be found even in the meanest heart.
    It is enough if just one person is there to believe, support and work through the issues. Anyone can deal with any kind of issues in any place.
     
  10. Sparkle

    Sparkle Platinum IL'ite

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    Serious problem in country A vs serious problem in country B calls for an individual thread, IMO.

    The west certainly has a better view.

    So is the case with small towns in the west. The bigger and more evolved the city is, the better the option. Therapy in New Jersey vs therapy in Detroit, is way different than one can imagine. Same with the case of acceptance.

    India has a lot to catch up on. I see two options here. We can discuss on the issues in India vs other places. Or focus on the opportunities everywhere and share appropriate guidance to people in need. It's up to us to make a choice.
     

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