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Death and its ramifications

Discussion in 'Cheeniya's Senile Ramblings' started by Cheeniya, Jun 27, 2007.

  1. kkrish

    kkrish IL Hall of Fame

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    Dear Sri Sir!
    This is a very lovely article on how we approach this eventuality in life. We can all escape all hurdles in the path of life but never this. But this is the one we always forget!
    I understood the hidden message very well Sir; unfortunately I am not able to pen my thoughts as well as all the feedbacks you have received, each of them so well written!
    Sorry sir for this very insipid feedback! Hopefully Sabitha will read it and give the feedback this article deserves!
     
  2. Cheeniya

    Cheeniya Super Moderator Staff Member IL Hall of Fame

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    Dear Kamala
    In a worldwide fraternity of which I am an active member, we are taught to look at death objectively and not to treat it as something dreadful that must be wished away. As Ramses I says in Ten Commandments, dying is just a part of living. It just appears to be the end stage but in the long continuous journey of the soul, death just ferries us to the next part of our journey.

    What is more important is that the sense of brittleness of life should impart the right perspective to us. I always wonder how, despite knowing that we may not pass through this way again and the chances of our meeting and interacting with all the people that we know are remote, some people keep behaving the way they do.
    Sri
     
  3. Srama

    Srama Finest Post Winner

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    Dear Cheeniya sir,

    just today I happened to chance upon this article, in a slightly different context but - In honor of Obama's 50th birthday, an investigation into why people get happier after middle age. - By Libby Copeland - Slate Magazine and this sentence here strung a chord and I remembered this post of yours - "When time horizons are relatively short, people prioritize emotionally meaningful goals," Carstensen said. In other words, we spend time with people we already know we like, or we take a class in beer-making, and we find our days richer and more meaningful as a result.

    For us to understand the meaning of life, we need to experience the void that is left behind either by us passing on or by loosing someone that was so dear to us. In either of the cases, we should first be in a position to receive and give that unconditional love. Even then, interrupting this state of mind is the time, hope and events - that time that heals(even if not completely) and hope the subsequent events bring with time - both positive and negative.

    And as you have rightly pointed out, it is one destination that nobody returns from, to tell us what the destination is like - which is quite contrary to human nature - we want to know! We are excited about exploring the Universe, the sun, the moon and the stars in the hope that there is something to explore because we believe in our ability and believe that there is meaning even if it takes many lifetimes of many people - the tangibility. But in the case of death and its ramifications, we at a very basic and intuitive level, know that we cannot find answers and hence we simply take it out out our system and keep moving on - no it does not mean we do not have a choice over how we live - we can only have that choice if we want to have it, if we try to live at a level that we are supposed to live - with awareness!!

    I have also been contemplating about all these new age speakers and seekers who assure us that we are immortal and hence we do not have to fear death and the same immortality or the thought of it should make us more aware, alive and live more in/with consciousness. After all the joy of known is better than the fear of the unknown. Would you agree if I say, looking at life with a sense of immortality might make better human beings out of us than looking at death and its finality?

    Kamala, thank you for bringing me to this post and your confidence in thought that I might have something to contribute - it means a lot, even though I feel I am going in concentric circles, agreeing to every word of what Cheeniya sir has said and still thinking about it and trying to spell it all out!!
     
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  4. ojaantrik

    ojaantrik IL Hall of Fame

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    Dear Sri:

    Till I came to Kumaresan, the only thing I remembered as I read you was: Kimashcharyamatahparam? The question the Lord Dharma asked his son Yudhishthira in the Mahabharata. And, as we all know, the son said: The greatest miracle in life is that despite the certainty of death, people keep on living as though they shan't ever die!

    And then Kumaresan invaded. His behaviour till the growth was discovered would fall in line with Yudhishthira's reply. Once told he was about to die, his behaviour changed. He was clearly no longer oblivious of death. What turned him into a kind person is hard to analyze of course. Was this his way of making penance? If so, then he must have been a person who found pleasure in watching human suffering, especially so if he could identify himself as the cause of the pain. Pre-growth, he probably wasn't worried about the notion of "Sin" or, probably was a person who enjoyed sinning. Post-growth, he could have begun thinking otherwise. Death would be less painful if he turned a new leaf he might have thought. Or, worse, he could have even started to believe that kindness towards others would cure him of his illness. As things turned out, he discovered that he was not ill after all. And his behaviour changed immediately. It was as though he had purchased the right to pollute the world (as in the Kyoto protocol) in exchange for kindly compensation. Kindness to him was a means of payment in the market for sins!

    The tale is an eye opener. The Bollywood villains do exist in real life it would seem. People who enjoy being cruel towards others. You should have told us what happened to Kumaresan at the end. Did he die in his sleep or did his payments in "kindness" earn him the right to live forever? I am curious and it is my guess that his death was peaceful and painless. If this is true, then I think Yudhishthira's reply to Dharma was not entirely correct. The right answer should have been: The greatest miracle on earth is that even after watching heartless, cruel people not being punished by God, a large section of humanity continues to be kind. The habit of being kind towards others does not leave them even after they are wronged mercilessly.

    But then who knows how God punishes after all. As you said, the post-death travelogue is yet to be written.

    oj

    PS I was quite amused to know that your parents failed to create a sister for you and that your only sibling is an elder brother. This is exactly my situation too.
     
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  5. Cheeniya

    Cheeniya Super Moderator Staff Member IL Hall of Fame

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    Dear Srama
    I’ll start with your interesting take on looking at life with a sense of immortality. I also take that meaningful quote of Carstensen “When time horizons are relatively short, people prioritize emotionally meaningful goals” Don’t you think what Carstensen says run counter to what you believe in your concluding sentence that looking at life with a sense of immortality might make better human beings? The story that I had narrated in my thread also substantiates Carstensen’s view. But it is still a debatable point. In raising a human being to a qualitatively superior position, which contributes more, a shorter life span or a long one?

    Let us turn back to our scriptures. In Satya Yuga when human beings lived lives of absolute virtue, the life span of a human being was 100000 years. Then the quality of life took a down swing over the successive yugas. In Tretha Yuga, the life span was 10000 years. In Dwapara Yuga when all the deceit and cunning showed its ugly head, the life span got reduced to 1000 years. We have now come to Kali Yuga when the human morals are taking a deep plunge, the average life span is 100 years. When the Kali ends, the cycle will start all over again. The Yuga based life span is what is ordained by God. Initially man had 100000 years to lead a life of perfect virtue and to do good. As his capacity to remain virtuous and to do good diminished over the Yugas, so did his life span. As this is God’s will, it necessarily follows that a sense of immortality may make better human beings of us but consider this. However much we may want to lead a virtuous life in Kali Yuga, the common traits of the Yuga will catch up with us. Look at the scandals involving even the spiritual gurus. You will know what I mean.

    That leaves us the only option. Immortality in this Yuga can at best be 100 years. The Sufis have the best answer here. ‘The Sufi’ declared the great Sufi philosopher Jalal-uddin Rumi ‘is the son of time present’. The present moment is the only aperture through which the soul can pass out of time into eternity. Pack as much life as possible into the present moment that we live. As long as we remain time conscious and keep thinking of the past, present and future, immortality can only be a dream. It is worthwhile to remember here the words of Eckhart: ‘Time is what keeps the light from reaching us. There is no greater obstacle to God than time.’

    Sri
     
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  6. Srama

    Srama Finest Post Winner

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    I did think about it sir, but I quoted Carstensen just keeping in mind the story you have quoted and how some people tend to change their perspective at the prospect of passing on - I should have clarified! Incidentally when you raised the question of if the life span should be longer or shorter, what you have quoted here is what came to my mind
    - that all the incidences around may not make it feasible!! And what you say here is something I would like to ponder on as well - makes sense
    However, you have piqued my interest with the second paragraph - can you please suggest some books/articles that can substantiate what you have spoken there? I am very interested to know more about the life span details you have given - recently I happened to hear about the book "The 12th Planet". I am yet to read, I am waiting for the local library to notify me of it's availability. As I wait, if I have an opportunity to understand what you have spoken about, I will only be very grateful.

    As always enjoyed your response very much sir and I am sure I will be coming back to this thread as and when questions arise - questions on this subject tend to come up quite often!
     
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  7. Cheeniya

    Cheeniya Super Moderator Staff Member IL Hall of Fame

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    Dear Srama
    One of the most important and widely read books is ‘Surya Siddhantha’. An English translation of this has been done by Ebenezer Burgess. I first saw a reference to this book in Wikipedia and endeavoured to get a copy of it but I could not. Then I saw this in Google Books and read it. It can appeal to those who have a strong background in mathematics in general and trigonometry in particular. I would recommend this book even to those uninitiated in higher mathematics. It is a mind-boggling book that can take your breath away! It will surely make us proud of our ancestry.

    While talking about this, I must give you an excerpt from Vishnu Purana:
    “During the Satya Yuga if any one inadvertently committed a wrong deed the entire kingdom had to bear the punishment. During Treta, if any one committed a wrong deed, the people of that town had to bear the punishment. During Dwapar Yuga, if anyone happened to commit a wrong deed, the entire family had to bear the punishment, but in Kali Yuga, he shall only bear the punishment who has committed the wrong deed.”

    As you know, the Kurukshetra war signified the end of Dwapara Yuga and the advent of Kaliyuga. When we see how one man’s villainy namely that of Duryodhana caused the destruction of the entire family of Kauravas without a trace except for the only sister of Duryodhana, Dusshala, we understand the significance of the system of punishment in various yugas. She was saved because she moved into another family after her marriage to Jayathrada.
    In Kaliyuga, we see powerful people languish in jail for sins they commit while their families remain unaffected. It is amazing that an ancient scripture lists out the effects of a misdeed through the various yugas.
    Sri
     
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  8. Cheeniya

    Cheeniya Super Moderator Staff Member IL Hall of Fame

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    My dear OJ
    This one answer establishes Yudhishtra’s wisdom more than whatever he said or did during his entire life. This aspect of human life never ceases to amaze me. In my part of the country, we talk of ‘Smasana Vairagya’. Smasana is, as you may know, the burial ground. When people visit here to consign the mortal remains of a friend or relative back to Nature, they vow to lead a life of virtue henceforth. This lofty thought probably will last till sunset that day! The sight or awareness of death does jolt us into a quick review of our past deeds and push us into penitent mood. But we get over this mood faster than the speed of light! This is what I had endeavored to convey through the story of Kumaresan.

    “The greatest miracle on earth is that even after watching heartless, cruel people not being punished by God, a large section of humanity continues to be kind”. I find it hard to come to terms with this stark truth that you have stated. This is what perhaps pushes people into wrong ways. Ever since the judicial system moved from the hands of God to man, judgment has become highly lopsided. We see it happening everywhere making our lives more chaotic. When God presided over the judiciary, there was hope.

    In keeping with His promise,
    “Parithranaya Sadhunam Vinashaya cha Dhushkrutham
    Dharma samsthapanarthaya Sambhavami Yuge Yuge"
    The Lord manifested Himself four times in Satya Yuga, three times in Tretha Yuga, two times in Dwapara Yuga for the sole purpose of enforcing Dharma and the protection of good people but He has washed His hands off Kali Yuga. He’ll manifest Himself as Kalki in this Yuga not in fulfillment of His above promise but to destroy us completely when things go beyond all redemption!

    Kumaresan suffered a stroke and remained paralysed for over a year and he needed help even to answer calls of nature. In his end, people saw it as some kind of nemesis but I continue to remain speculative about it. I entirely agree with you when you raise the doubt ‘who knows how God punishes after all’. His delayed justice may not be denied justice. Maybe it has a different meaning altogether in the grand scheme of things.
    Sri
     
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  9. iyerviji

    iyerviji Finest Post Winner

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    My dear Anna

    When people die suddenly the family members feel very sad and are not able to come out of that very easily. I think olden times people lived long and were healthy also. Now a days we hear of so many people dying at the age of 50 only. In my husband's family itself 3 of his nephews died at the age of 52 yrs and they died suddenly without any sickness leaving behind their wife and children. Feel sorry for their wives. In our society widows are not given much importance in the weddings etc. and they feel so bad about it. Recently also two of my friends lost their husband suddenly and one is still saying might be I did not look after him properly thats why he died. When time comes everyone has to die.

    We are not going to take anything with us while going. So its better to do good things as long as we are here in this world. People will remember about those persons who always do good even after their death.

    Its true that whatever bad we do in this kaliyug will come back to us now itself and not wait for next birth. One of our relative due to jealousy did not help his brother during his niece's marriage. He was talking against his brother and finding faults during marriage. Next year his wife expired suddenly and now for everything he has to depend on his brother. From childhood both brothers have been like Rama and Lakshman but someone wanted to separate them and because of that he acted like that during marriage. But still his brother and sister in law are doing good only. They only did kanyadan for brother's daughter's marriage. Till now they are helping his brother whenever he needs them.

    As we grow old God should give us good health and die without giving trouble to anyone.
     
  10. Srama

    Srama Finest Post Winner

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    Thank you cheeniya sir for the references you have made. I will be sure to lay my hands on the book and read it. The explanation you make, makes me wonder more and more and probably that is why I am drawn more and more to these new age masters like Dr.Dyer, Dr.Weiss and to a large extent Eckhart Tolle. It seems we have come with an understanding of the "just me (ego)" in this yuga as the ramifications of our deeds are not felt by us (felt by others but we cannot/choose not to see as the wrong doer). When these people speak of immortality from the way I understand it is that we are individuals with our own karma yet we are intertwined with the lives of others in ways we cannot understand but it would help us to believe that we will take rebirths to redeem that karma with all the associated people - in that sense we are immortal because we will always find our love (so don't fear death) and that we will continue repaying and re-bonding (like the circumstances in our life that we may not understand) - do your best so that you may eventually find that utmost true love or as we believe become one with the universe!! Even as I write this, I know Hinduism speaks of this, yet for some reason these people have touched me in ways I cannot understand, probably because of the timing of my reading? Reading Dr.Weiss' "Many lives many masters" has helped me through a very difficult phase - no other book of his made an impact as much. Hopefully reading the book you have referred will help me understand better - I am still searching not just about death but about life as well!

    Just another thought
    Would you also think that there is that larger section of kind humans for the very same reason - a group of individuals with their own karma but fortunate to be born at the same time, so the good is felt by one another and so that they can take succor and continue to be in the path of good, being and doing - for their individual truth?

    ps: I hope I am not dragging this thread going back and forth!! As I have said earlier, responding to your threads not only makes me think, but also helps me in better phrasing my thoughts and the choice of words I make, for I am afraid I may not make right sense if I do not do so - the only other thread where I was so conscientious was in "English matters"!! It feels good to be like this!!
     
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