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Atma is immutable and cannot be destroyed.

Discussion in 'Chitvish on Hindu Culture & Vedanta' started by Chitvish, Jan 3, 2008.

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  1. Jan 3, 2008 #1
    Chitvish

    Chitvish Moderator IL Hall of Fame

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    With a purified mind, with the knowledge of Satchitananda, deeper meditation is possible.

    Avinaas(h)I thu thadviddhi, yaena sarvamidam thatham
    Vinaas(h)am avyayasyaasya na kas(h)chith arthumarhathi 2.17

    You understand that, to be the imperishable by which all this is pervaded. No one can bring about the destruction of this changeless one.

    We now know asat (anatma) cannot destroy the sat (Atma). This would be like pot destroying the clay – which is impossible ! The pot cannot get rid of the clay and destroy it. Such a possibility does not exist.

    Regardless of the number of people, Atma is always non-dual. No number or condition, activity or connection to activity, brings about a change in the Atma. In fact there is no connection for the Atma, just as there is no connection between the clay and the pot because all that is there, is clay. If there were a pot other than clay, then the clay could establish a relationship with it. But, when a pot is only clay, there can be no relationship between them. This, then, is the nature of Atma.

    2.18 again emphasizes that Atma is Aprameya: - unobjectifiable.

    Antavanta ime deha: nithyasyOkthaa: shareeriNa:
    Anaashino(a)pramaeyasya thasmaddhyuddhyasva bhaaratha 2.18

    It is said- Perishable are these bodies, which belong to the eternal, imperishable and unobjectifiable Self.Therefore fight, Oh Arjuna !

    This is again a repetition of the same idea.
    Atma is never an object of knowledge. It is ever the experiencer, never the experienced.
    Let us remember, we can never see our own eyes.
    So atma is
    Nithya: - eternal
    Satya: - real
    Sarvagatha: - all pervading
    Aprameya: - unobjectifiable

    2.19 says Atma is
    Akartha - does not do action
    Abhoktha - is not involved in action

    Ya aenam vaeththi hantharam, yashchainam manyathae hatham
    Ubhau thau na vijaaneetha: naayam hanthi na hanyathae 2.19

    The one who considers this (Self) to be a killer and the one who considers this (Self) to be killed, both of them do not know. This (Self) does not kill nor is killed.

    The corollary is, so atma is free from all karmas and has no punarjanma. Karmas are meant for only Sukshma Sariram which travels from place to place. So, the Atma does not get entangled in any newly generated chain of vasanas. The ocean does not grow or die when a wave rises, swell, plays and then tumbles to become the ocean again.
    Thus, it is established that the Self is immutable.

    Love,
    Chithra.
     
    Chitvish, Jan 3, 2008
    Chitvish, Jan 3, 2008
    #1
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  2. Jan 3, 2008 #2
    Anandchitra

    Anandchitra IL Hall of Fame

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    Dear Chithra
    I have to say I am ecstatic (sp?) to just read the first line
    deeper meditation is possible
    I am just overjoyed to read its possible..to read the word possible and meditation in one sentence !!
    Because thats what I want to do..meditate..
    But re-reading the line, I see the word "purified mind"... hmmm??
    Thanks for writing this very intellectual post.
    I am going to have to take some time to go through this and will give a fb after.
    Thanks again.
     
    Anandchitra, Jan 3, 2008
    Anandchitra, Jan 3, 2008
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  3. Jan 3, 2008 #3
    Kamla

    Kamla IL Hall of Fame

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    That Athma is eternal is understood (by me). That Athma is all prevading and is one with Bramhan, is something I have dinned into my mind.

    Atma is never an object of knowledge. It is ever the experiencer, never the experienced............................

    With this above quote, I am having problems to really grasp the meaning. Shall mull over it for some time, may be I will get the idea....

    Very powerful verses, like as though they hold the secrets to the universe....correction...they hold the secrets!

    I now understand how much thought and effort must have gone into them and how difficult it must be to bring these valuable lines to us in your simple language.

    Thank you.

    L, Kamla
     
    Kamla, Jan 3, 2008
    Kamla, Jan 3, 2008
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  4. Jan 3, 2008 #4
    Shanvy

    Shanvy IL Hall of Fame

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    Hi chithmam,

    good one. and I definitely agree to the first line. deeper meditation is possible when you are in satchitanandam...the moment we realise the contentment....and self realisation leads to possible ways of deeper meditation...when do we get a realisation in the true sense..when we do get purity of thoughts...so all are interlinked..right??

    So to sum up what i have understood ...

    the material body is perishable.The time frame for perishability may vary but all material bodies will perish one day.the living entity (atma) cannot be killed nor can the material body be saved for any length of time or permanently protected.
     
    Shanvy, Jan 3, 2008
    Shanvy, Jan 3, 2008
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  5. Jan 3, 2008 #5
    Chitvish

    Chitvish Moderator IL Hall of Fame

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    Dear AC,
    Thanks a ton.
    Purified mind neet not bother you or worry you. It is a life long journey, continuing, janma after janma.
    As I "repeatedly repeat" (?), we must make a sincere beginning. That is all we need to do now. Things will unfold slowly but steadily.
    Yes, AC, read again & again.
    You are welcome for a repeat F B.
    Love
    To
    AC
    From
    Le C.


     
    Chitvish, Jan 3, 2008
    Chitvish, Jan 3, 2008
    #5
  6. Jan 3, 2008 #6
    Chitvish

    Chitvish Moderator IL Hall of Fame

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    Dear Kamla,
    So prompt, you are & my prompter thanks.
    For the line
    Atma is never an object of knowledge. It is ever the experiencer, never the experienced............................

    Atma is subject - a subject can never become object.
    Our eyes are part of us - can ever see our own eyes? Never !!
    From your telephone, can you make a call to your own number ? Never !!

    From there, we go to
    Atma is the experiencer - so, it can never be the experienced object, the world.

    The next few verses constitute the essence of the core of the Gita. I pray God, that I should be able to put it across in simple, ununderstandable language, call it expressions !

    Thanks for your nice words.
    Love,
    Chithra.




     
    Chitvish, Jan 3, 2008
    Chitvish, Jan 3, 2008
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  7. Jan 3, 2008 #7
    Chitvish

    Chitvish Moderator IL Hall of Fame

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    Dear Shan,
    Perfect !
    What I have put in so many words, has been clearly understood by you & conveyed in a gist !
    Next, I may write a post on "vasanas", about which I have made a mention !
    Thanks, Shan.
    Love,
    Chithra.



     
    Chitvish, Jan 3, 2008
    Chitvish, Jan 3, 2008
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  8. Jan 3, 2008 #8
    Vysan

    Vysan Gold IL'ite

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    Dear Chitvish,

    I understood that atma cannot be destroyed and it is ever pervading.... You also say that karma is not for the Atma and it is for the Sukshama Sariram.... Sorry, I am lost...

    When we talk about the papa punya balance sheet of a person, we talk about his poorva janma karma and all.... Now if it is not linked to atma.... then how is it getting carried... Soes that mean SS also gets carried to the next janma.... Does SS get mingled with Atma.....

    What is meant by deeper meditation.....?????????

    Sorry.... I know I am asking stupid questions in front of the learned people.... But after reading this I got confused a lot.... May all forgive my ignorance....

    Thanks in advance..........
     
    Vysan, Jan 3, 2008
    Vysan, Jan 3, 2008
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  9. Jan 3, 2008 #9
    Chitvish

    Chitvish Moderator IL Hall of Fame

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    Dear Veda,
    Please,please, do not ever repeat
    Sorry.... I know I am asking stupid questions in front of the learned people.... But after reading this I got confused a lot.... May all forgive my ignorance....
    If everybody understands everything instantly, I will not be here, writing posts ! That I am also yet to understand deeper, goes without saying.
    Please read my post on Sarirathrayam again in detail. The papa punya "gets attached" (as though) only to the sukshma sariram. S S , in a new birth, gets a new Sthoola sariram & the papa punya attached to it, are fructified. I hope it is a little more clear now.
    Deeper meditation means, our higher level of thinking only on atma. As I always mention, very highly learned & knowledgeable people only, are capable of that level.
    Please come back here again, if you have any doubt - do not hesitate, Veda.
    Love,
    Chithra.



     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2008
    Chitvish, Jan 3, 2008
    Chitvish, Jan 3, 2008
    #9
  10. Jan 3, 2008 #10
    aishu22

    aishu22 Gold IL'ite

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    Dear Chithra,
    Thursdays are special to me.As soon as i come into work, i login IL to read ur culture post and start my day at work on a good ,Spiritual, little bit enlightened note.

    This post on Atma was very self explanatory.I'm not thinking too deep about the topic because i have not yet acheived a state of mind (selfless, pure).But at the most i do make a beginning to understand that all the pavama and punyams that we do in this janma is carried on and it affects only the sariram and thers is no karma for the soul.

    A soul can never me punished or killed -yes i understand this point!

    Chithra, one thing we(me n Raghav) have made clear for our living - Not thinking any thing bad for anybody(known or unknown living beings).Not uttering any bad words to any body.Just we are making a "ithuvum kadanthu pogum" way of living!

    I dunt not know if your posts have changed me a lot, but i have definitely made a beginning to what ever you have emphasied and imparted thru ur posts.

    Thanks for this wonderful post.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2008
    aishu22, Jan 3, 2008
    aishu22, Jan 3, 2008
    #10
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