If God Exists, Why Isn't It Obvious?

Gauri03 · Jul 27, 2016

Why all the cloak and dagger? Why the need for 'faith'? Why can't an omnipotent, omniscient being make herself apparent? Wouldn't it have made everything so much simpler?

As you've probably gathered, this is a thread about belief, or the lack of it for some of us. According to a recent report, 81% of Indians were religious, 13% were not religious, 3% were convinced atheists, and 3% were unsure or did not respond.* In the United States, belief in god is at an all time low, especially among the younger generations.

When I first joined IL such discussions were anathema. Questioning the existence of god just wasn't done. A lot has changed, or so I thought. Like the world around us, here too the ranks of the uncertain have grown. I can count at least three of us now. : ) Recently, I came across an instance of a member's morality being questioned due to the absence of overt religiosity in her post history. What's more, it was disconcerting to see that a few people seemed to agree with this line of questioning. Have things really changed, I wonder? Seems like a good time to revisit this perennial debate.

How do you categorize your belief in the existence of god? The poll accompanying this thread is a simplified version of Richard Dawkins' spectrum of theistic probability.

For nonbelievers:

Why are you an atheist? Tell us: about life as an atheist/agnostic, on reconciling with the religious underpinnings of our culture, and on raising a family as a nonbeliever. What does spirituality mean to you? Is it possible to be spiritual in the absence of religion? What about morality?

Believers:

Why do you believe? How do you reconcile your education and understanding of the natural world with belief in a creator god? Why does god let evil exist? Do stories of unthinkable atrocities committed against innocents shake your belief? What is your opinion of nonbelievers? Do you think morality is the exclusive domain of the religious?

Both sides are encouraged to engage each other in a polite and civil debate. Lets make this interesting!

* Sourced from Wikipedia

GoogleGlass · Jul 28, 2016

Yes let me have a go at it. Purely my own logical/illogical thoughts/belief, free to call however you may want to. But am not ready for a debate though, not that learned to justify mine.

I don't believe in the existence other than those that exist here virtually and out there in reality.

I am for sure my dad existed and now not, except in photos and in my thoughts. He is a guiding force as he has instilled certain or all of the good things in me, mom too. Born in a very religious family, I failed to be religious in the process of being religious, turning agnostic and ending an atheist.

Now is my dad, god? No not really as I don't believe in god but dad. Hundreds of things he must have taught me and thousands he could not have or sensing me a dumb couldn't have. It's an evolution of thought process within me which guided me away from the existence.

Concious, family values, virtues, upbringing, social awareness/responsibilty, love towards co-existers and very many others keep me going. A strong mind that does not fail in undue stress, issues, problems can take you forward by not leaning to or blaming the so called existence of an unknown power. Never venture into debates/arguments to prove/disprove.

Mind is clear, conscious is clear knowing the responsibilities and the solutions/means to be looked at to travel the journey with less clutters. I do have problems at hand and wouldn't expect a super power to help me out, if I can't help myself how would someone else? Be it a friend, family to help at the maximum when in trouble and if they don't how do you expect a non-existent to reach out with olive branch.

I succeed or fail definitely wouldn't blame the non-existent even in my death bed. This is for the start G ji. If I do can add more sense/nonsense, shall stumble in again

All in my family are believers - neither I exercise control over them nor they on me in this aspect. Every individual has their right to believe in what they may. I fully respect their belief system as much as I would love mine.

Ragini25 · Jul 28, 2016

Matrix!

But yes I was surprised when my ability to talk abt morality, actually integrity, is questioned becos I dont chant in IL spiritual forum
VERY VERY INTERESTING TOPIC - Close to my heart, so close that I'm not getting the right words to write - but will want to add to this thread sometime.

kaniths · Jul 28, 2016

This is such a dense post to answer all points at once, but in bits maybe? There is so much for me to explore and am only testing the waters now, questioning everything I can and validating my own beliefs. So far it learns towards Atheism more, for I consider science has more convincing answers to all my whys than religion preachings and Science, in future might even have fool proof explanations for design of this world and how universe came to existence too, more accurately, shaking the very fundamentals of theisms, proving that there not once was a supreme creator but only physics and the laws of nature ever existed, the cause and reasons! : )

There is this Atheist argument in the internet that I kinda enjoy or say mm a favourite! May seem absurd too but it goes like -

"If God has all abilities as claimed to be, does it not override that very same fact since he CANNOT die, him being an immortal???"

Ragini25 · Jul 28, 2016

kaniths said: ↑

This is such a dense post to answer all points at once, but in bits maybe? There is so much to explore and am only testing the waters now, questioning everything I can and validating my own beliefs. So far it learns towards Atheism more, for I consider science has more convincing answers to all my whys and Science, in future might even have fool proof explanations to design of this world and how the universe came too, more accurately, shaking the very fundamentals of theisms, proving that there not once ever was a supreme creator but only physics and the laws of nature existed! : )

There is this Atheist argument in the internet that I kinda enjoy or say mm a favourite! May seem absurd too but it goes like -

"If God has all abilities as claimed to be, does it not override that very same fact since he CANNOT die, him being an immortal???"
Click to expand...

before she deletes, i need to read /

Gauri03 · Jul 28, 2016

Thanks for the responses, GG, K and Rags. It was starting to feel quite lonely here. At this rate we'll make it to page 2! Yay! I will address specific points in your posts separately. Here's something to start with.

I was born into a moderately religious family. Neither of my parents were overtly religious, though they are privately devout. The golden rule they taught us was that being a good person was all that god required of us. There was no ritualistic indoctrination, no sense of fear over past life karma, or need for future salvation was forced upon us. As a child I simply believed, as children do, without questioning or much reflection. I think I started questioning things after certain childhood events that sowed the seeds of doubt. I could not reconcile the idea of a loving god with my experiences. I asked, but never received, a satisfactory explanation for the existence of evil in our world. Paying for the bad deeds of my past life in this one didn't make any sense to me. What kind of god would make a small child pay for the alleged sins of its past lives, or worse, its parents' sins?! The whole thing seemed cruel and arbitrary. Not something one would expect from a benevolent god.

I was a voracious reader. School and science filled the void that religion couldn't. Learning about evolution and the origin of the universe gave me answers that were evidence-based, and didn't require a leap of faith. The discrepancy between what we learned in school and what passed as accepted wisdom at home further eroded my belief in a creator. I began to realize that life and the universe would exist just the same even without a god. The world around us is governed by self-regulating laws of science, not by an all-powerful entity. Another milestone in my journey to becoming a nonbeliever was learning about the religious reform movements of Dayanand Saraswati, Raja Ram Mohan Roy, and Ishwar Chandra Vidyasagar. What was moral and acceptable in one century becomes abhorrent and unacceptable a few 100 years later. This cycle has continued since the beginning of culture. Was god unable to make consistent rules for us to live our lives?

These questions swirl in my mind and so far I have no answers. More later.

kaniths · Jul 28, 2016

I come from that religion background which is blamed in India for being the originators of the evil caste descriminations in the society (still prevailing) all in the name of god, culture, society or sin otherwise! I don't deny and feel its only right to hold this community responsible for its past atrocities commited (note : its entirely a different argument that current generations are suffering etc etc) and reading in depths, how the sacred books have been manipulated for selfish causes, kinda pushed me out. Didn't the same God say we are all equal? Only noble humans intervened, revolutionized and brought reforms. How was god involved? Why didn't the exploited's prayers not answered in time?

Laks09 · Jul 28, 2016

@Gauri03 - I belong to category 1(yes, it surprises me too). We are not too ritualistic and even the small things I do are because my dh wants me to light the lamp everyday and not keep the Pooja room dark. But I do believe. I have to. It's like a crutch, if I don't then I may lose my head.
There are things that science hasn't answered for me yet. Even being in the field, knowing logic isn't enough sometimes.
Btw, the first book I read about autism had a first chapter that said if you don't have a faith find one. You need something because this is a life long challenge!

More later..,,

Sairindhri · Jul 28, 2016

Hi,
I am a believer. Not much time to discuss here.
Certain things are not obvious, we can only feel it.
The air we breathe , we can demonstrate it scientifically, can we see it. The breeze is felt. Not obvious, but felt.
The love we feel, the hatred we feel, all those feelings are felt, can't be proven scientifically.
God's presence is felt and only those who had felt can relate to it. I have felt it many times, and I am blessed to get those things. Certain people feel it and certain don't, it does not mean that feelings are not there, right!. So is God!

There was a quote by a discourse provider, where he would answer, if God is there, where is he?
Can anyone tell us in which direction the dia (a lit lamp) shows the light! It illuminates the entire place, there is no particular direction, so is God! Cannot define where he is either! Omnipresent.

Cheers!