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My thoughts - opposing viewpoints, tolerance and respectfully disagreeing

Discussion in 'Snippets of Life (Non-Fiction)' started by Dancer, Aug 15, 2012.

  1. coolwinds

    coolwinds Platinum IL'ite

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    they exist, because not only do people still think like this, they perpetuate their own small thoughts by shouting from the roof-tops, mountains and yes, from forum posts, too!

    i wish people would stop the mutual back-scratching and analyze and refine their own views.

    edited to add:

    one more thing, not everyone who was offended or angry with the post in question has reacted in that manner because of their similar past experiences, but because they see and are concerned about the negative effects of such thoughts and views on people's lives and on innocent children.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2012
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  2. Dancer

    Dancer Silver IL'ite

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    Vaidehi71,

    Thank you for your explanations. I am able to understand better where you come from. When people take time to explain like this, then it becomes easier to see their point of view.

    Actually, I am the darkest one (the dreaded word "wheatish") in my family (parents, brother, hubby included). I have explained more about my situation in the made for each other thread, you might have seen it.

    I realized that many ladies were angry because they have been hurt in the past. I knew that we all say things in anger and that many people once they cool down might actually regret the outburst and would be willing to explain their position calmly. Been there, done that :)

    Yes, I see your point.
     
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  3. Dancer

    Dancer Silver IL'ite

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    teacher,

    I have been reading a few of your replies regarding these topics and really appreciate the way you write. From what I understood, you have faced the discrimination (someone drove by the sludge and drenched you) and yet, you are trying to explain to people in such a rational and compassionate way. :hatsoff

    I have tried to read your views and understand what you are trying to say. You come from a different world than me (other than the soda-butti and braces :)).

    At the risk of being ostracized, let me say that I cannot just make complete statements like the caste-system is wrong. May be the way the caste-system has turned out might be wrong, but when they actually "started" it, there must have been a reason why. Humans unfortunately have a tendency to pollute the intention behind systems because of their baser nature.

    For example, democracy might have come into place in order to get over the cons of monarchy (Not sure of the history here). Doesn't a system of the public choosing the leaders who will run the country for them sound really fair on paper? But how is the democracy in India as we know it? Bribery, corruption, political power, black money , the very people who are supposed to serve the public are taking advantage of the system.

    For that matter, I can't be completely against monarchy too. Given what we know about genetics, is it too much to think that the son of a brave warrior/best archer/strategic campaigner might have those quality in his genes? Also even taking into consideration the "nurture" aspect of it, a king will be in a good position to provide all the requirements needed for bringing up a future king - he has all resources at his disposal.

    Even many of the religions in the world might have started out with the best of intentions, but as time passes by, the followers of the original saint/messiah might bring in their own interpretations and biases (intentionally or otherwise), not to mention miscommunication as time passes by and what the religions are right now may be not what exactly the founders had in mind?

    Or take marriage as an institution. When we don't take the effort to maintain the sanctity of marriage - sex without love, unwed mothers, missing fathers, intolerance/hate between spouses, divorces, then people start questioning the validity of the system. Now if homosexual couples ask us what rights we have to comment on their relationship when marital sanctity is rarely seen in the heterosexual marriages, it becomes hard for us to argue the case. Or if a long-suffering, dominated wife/DIL feels that no justice has been offered to her in this system, she might wish for a live-in instead of the marital setup that has cause her suffering. Though the system of marriage is a good one (according to me), shortcomings of humans in the system erodes the system slowly.

    I understand I have simplified a lot of complex issues. What I am trying to say is that there are reasons why certain systems came into being. But human beings because of their human shortcomings might end up aggravating the negatives of a system.

    When the one with the upper hand in a particular system starts to abuse the others (be it a king or a politician or "upper caste" or a dominating spouse/IL), I think the system starts crumbling down.

    May be there is a time for each system and once it has lived it's course, we take on a new system? I am not sure.

    Let me say again that I appreciate your posts a lot and respect the way you have behaved. You are a valuable teacher :)
     
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  4. Dancer

    Dancer Silver IL'ite

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    Ok, point noted.
     
  5. teacher

    teacher Platinum IL'ite

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    OP,

    You have a discussion going:)

    Discrimination has a one central theme to it which hurts the most-the injury you can get over...but the insult rankles because it is a power play. I think you can get addicted to it...once you get the taste of power over another human being you want more.

    I used to work in a school for students with very serious behavioral issues. When there is any kind of outburst, we were trained to shut up, get the others to safety and then wait with the student until help arrived. I'm afraid it is my training that stops me from saying the first thing which comes to my mind as opposed to any inner knowledge:0

    I went to a very liberal school of education...some of my teachers were prominent in the civil rights movement and it was impossible not to come out with a fiery attitude. I am always thankful for that because to me that is the ideal. The program has a very strong inclusion focus and not surprisingly, the school district is known for its inclusion programs across the age groups. Whenever there were glitches, the two bodies collaborated and tried to resolve issues. So as student teachers we had multiple courses on inclusion and all the different aspects...one day in class a fellow student got up and started questioning if the benefit to the students with disability really justified the demerits to the other able bodied children. Now this particular professor is renowned as one of The advocates for inclusion. Everyone in my class was really angry at my classmate who questioned the philosophy-you could hear the rumbling and the muttering. But one of my most valuable lessons in being a human being was learned in those 15 minutes. The professor countered her arguments with clear reason and with the utmost respect. She was challenging his life's work and the way he responded made me realize that this is a man who believes in what he stands for. I think I believe in inclusion because of the example he set for us. It is easy to be respectful and kind or what have you when the person acknowledges and agrees with your point of view...the real test comes when it is is challenged. Little did I know that this was going to be something I'd have to experience again and again.

    Towards the end, we had another discussion...we had all gone to inclusive programs for our student teaching. But some of us would invariably work in segregated programs...how would we balance our philosophy with that of the program? How were we going to negotiate the diverse beliefs of the people who worked in these programs?

    I ended up in a segregated program-one with very intense services. If the student couldn't thrive there, the next (and final) step was institutionalization. It had multiple streams-one for students with severe to profound intellectual disabilities and any associated emotional/behavioral needs, one for students with emotional needs, etc. The first week I witnessed a confrontation-a young man with ED was screaming at another who had an obvious syndrome..."You R****, You are stupid because you are....." SOme of the other students got agitated and others thought it was funny. Soon the staff and crisis counselors had separated them and taken them away to DE-escalate. I came back a bit flustered. I had always thought it was the able bodied who discriminated against those with disabilities! Silly, Naive Me! Recently a parent who has a child with disability and is a reader at a program for the blind came back very upset. Her friend, a blind man had just called another young man with a mental illness 'crazy.' I asked her to go discuss it with him rather than walk away from his friendship. I think she is trying to help him dissociate the illness from the person's behavior

    Over the years I've learned that even the adults in this field discriminate their students. Parents of children with disabilities justify it. I don't think it is cynicism but realism. I have heard so many people spout all the right words at the right time and then whisper in smaller groups...if only this child was not this, if only that child was not that..all based on some demographic. Now I watch to see what people do not what they say. I'd rather see how they act when it is their own little world that is shaken up...and my belief in human beings is reiterated by those who stick to their guns or surprise themselves by putting the humanity in the other before their sense of identity.

    I'd rather ask 'why' 'what is your justification?' rather than shunt it under the carpet. Even with laws in places there are ways to circumvent it. That is why black kids get labeled ED while a white kid gets labeled LD; a city administration can justify incarceration because the rioters were 'criminal elements' without doing anything to address their mental health conditions or their living conditions; that is why schools can get away with having an afternoon shift for the poor children-separate from the well to do kids, all in the name of bringing them up to par and satisfying the RTE requirements!

    When your work exposes you to some of the ugliest aspects of human beings, you have to use your anger constructively. One of the organizations I collaborate with works in one of the most backward regions of the country. It is essentially two groups from the lower rungs of the caste system fighting for the benefits provided by the government, all the while trying to stay out of the dynamics with the dominant group there. Group A has utilized the quota system very well and made great strides economically and socially though I can't say they've made much progress in women's rights. The quandary for the organization is that they will not let group B have access to the same benefits. group B is really really poor...so the organization includes children from both groups- The person who manages it explained that he was in two minds about this. "But then I realized that teaching group B to advocate for themselves is only part of the equation. Group A needs to learn how to be fair in the use of the resources. The best way is to bring the children together-when they grow up they will not use only their identity to make decisions." Mind you, they are both from the underprivileged class. The rights one group wants for itself they don't want to share with the other, more needy group. It is a hierarchy because there is a third group, Group C, waiting to swallow group A!

    As for your other points about the divisions, everything we know about how one or the other started is hearsay...two people may observe the same incident and come to completely differing conclusions and note it down differently. SO I don't give credence to anything as a given..but that is my belief. Others may have different opinion. As for belonging to a group...I had a very unusual upbringing...one part of it was that I moved every two years, until I finished high school. Due to the constant uprooting, I could never belong to any homogenous group and even entering into a heterogenous one required a lot of skillful interactions. Being an outsider gives you a very different perspective on group dynamics-while a lot of people may say that it teaches you to help one another, work together, I think you can do that with people unlike you as well. But there is one danger to group dynamics-it makes you susceptible to mob mentality...you start to identify with the group rather than the individual in you. As a result you start justifying actions in the name of greater good. History teaches you more harm has come from actions for the greater good than actions for personal gain.

    Oversimplification works when you don't have to face it day to day in ways you can't control...it can be an ideal. We all need to believe in ideals. But working on the ground requires careful thought & planning, and execution.

    Hope I didn't bore you...I am away on a trip for work so thought I'd respond before I leave. Don't know if I'll have access to the net while I am there...
     
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  6. Dancer

    Dancer Silver IL'ite

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    Am on a trip too. The entire week. Will respond once am back. Enjoy your trip.
     
  7. Vasupradha

    Vasupradha Gold IL'ite

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    Hi Dancer,

    your thoughts are understood..We cant expect OP to reply, after bashing her with words...right...But Why no reply to the views of Viswa Sir and Satchi akka, and some others ...who are very much respectful in their words???
    Why no response , even to some good and healthy opinions?? why not acknowledging the ppl, who are reading the posts and spending their valuable time in sharing their thoughts in a respectful manner ???

    Vasu...
     
  8. Dancer

    Dancer Silver IL'ite

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    teacher,

    I am back and settled after my trip. Wow, you did provide a lot of information from your perspective :)



    I think you might have something there, about the sense of power involved. Fodder for thought.


    That is a powerful real-life example. I can almost imagine myself in your classmate's shoes :) It shows the strength of character of your professor to make her see his point of view.
    Sometimes people come with different perspectives and it might have been a genuine doubt/belief from her side when she raised those questions. Explaining calmly when life's work is involved might be hard, but such an honorable thing to do!

    I did get your point of how "discriminated" people/group themselves discriminate against other groups/people.

    Again, something to think about. I would say that a lot of good can also be accomplished by forming groups for the greater good - the path of ahimsa to get freedom for India, for example. However, mob mentality is a dangerous thing, I agree.

    Fair enough.

    My main intention in writing about discrimination was that even the "broad-minded" people who are above discriminating on the basis of caste/color might very well discriminate on the basis of intelligence, education, "attraction level" etc (atleast for marriage purposes). Hence my question whether anyone will easily agree if their child "falls in love" with their maid's child. Almost all the people who got so worked up over the caste/color issues conveniently chose to overlook my question.

    But other people's prejudices do not justify mine. Agree with that. Obviously, I am not an instant-convert to the all-accepting school of thought. But these threads have given me stuff to think about.

    Thinking about when we were discriminated against might actually help us avoid discriminating against others.

    For me my religious background/beliefs and spiritual search serves as guide in my life choices and beliefs. Whatever I have said so far have been based on where I stand now. As I grow (both age-wise and otherwise), the perspective is going to change.

    I might have had a deeper conversation if this were a one-on-one. As it is a public forum, I am not going into more details (too late?:)) and winding this up.

    Thank you for giving me a peek into your brain. See you around.
     
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  9. Dancer

    Dancer Silver IL'ite

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    Vasupradha,

    I was a little busy and hence the late response.

    I see the point in the questions you raised, but it is for the OP to answer, what can I say? Anyway, I think already some steps have been taken (deleting offensive parts of the threads).

    The other thread was a jumping point for mine, but I was not trying to be the OP's spokesperson or anything :)
     
  10. teacher

    teacher Platinum IL'ite

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    Hi Dancer,

    I agree with you that we are all broad minded in some things and not in others...I see that everyday in my work...even those who consider themselves very liberal/open minded become stressed out about sending their children to 'magnet schools' where children from poorer sctions of the city are bussed.

    I understand their worry...that it may impact their child's learning but that can be said of sending your child to the most exclusive private school too...they would never see their act as being discriminatory....same as the many parents who want the poorer children in India to move up in life with a good education but worry if their child's education will get hit by including these children in the same class.

    That is why I like to watch what others do and not what they say...it is easy to say the right thing...difficult to follow up on it when it affects you...something to hope that we will rise to the occasion when it is our turn..

    As for our views on religion or groups, our experiences are valid for our individual selves and therefore our opinions will also differ. Isn't that the way it should be?

    I admire your honesty in writing your post and looking into yourself. It takes courage.
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2012
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