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My thoughts - opposing viewpoints, tolerance and respectfully disagreeing

Discussion in 'Snippets of Life (Non-Fiction)' started by Dancer, Aug 15, 2012.

  1. Naksh

    Naksh Platinum IL'ite

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    Very nice Dancer.
     
  2. Dancer

    Dancer Silver IL'ite

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    Ridgeamma and Naksh,

    Thank you for the responses.


    Viswa sir,

    Thank you for explaining your point of view in a very nice way. When people explain like that, it might be easier for others to see their point-of-view.


    To all others,

    Let's say I have a not-so-nice opinion. Now when I say that out and people pounce on me and "scold" me and call me names, will that really help in correcting me? I might end up agreeing with what the majority say (or may be get defensive and back away), but that might be more out of fear. I am not sure if such a change will come from the bottom of the heart or even if it is permanent.

    Real change in viewpoint can come only with understanding and I wonder if aggressive responses are going to help with gaining that understanding.

    A lot of people were upset about the discrimination on the basis of caste and looks. I am not sure what exactly is meant by discriminating, here. I agree that every individual deserves respect and we need to be nice to people irrespective of caste or nationality or color. We should not treat them badly, hurt them or abuse them because of the distinctions. I agree with all those points! But may be that is where my limits are. I will be friends with that person, but I might not be comfortable marrying that person or may be even if someone in close family marries that person (I know most of you will say it is none of my business).

    I feel that most of us continue to discriminate (intentionally and unintentionally) in so many ways - not only caste or looks.

    Even the broad-minded people who don't mind their children marrying from a different caste/nationality might still mind if their child marries some one of an extremely low intelligence level or education level. Isn't that discrimination against the "intellectually-challenged"? After all, education by itself is not a virtue. Yet, how many of us would be ok with their intelligent and successful child marrying an uneducated, unintelligent person?

    Another example - most of us would like to spend time with people whom we find charismatic, funny, interesting, share our views etc. We might be nice to the "boring" , "not-so-charismatic" or "opposing-view" person, but we might still not want to spend lots of time with them (let alone want to marry them). So, is this not a very subtle discrimination against the "boring" person? After all, being funny or interesting is again not a virtue.

    We all definitely discriminate against people who are "low on the moral scale" like say, murderers, frauds and rapists. Now, I am just a starting-out student of spirituality, but doesn't spirituality say that there is a God in every one of us, that we have the potential to reach God. Then, the murderer/cheater also has that potential in him (though he might be at a very low moral level)?

    Please understand that I am NOT in any way supporting the action of murdering/raping/cheating!

    How about your child falls in love with your maid's child? Will you be happy to get them married? Why not? Is not the maid a creation of God, a human being with her own dignity?

    So basically, we discriminate in many ways - big and small. Doesn't have to be only on the basis of caste/sexual orientation/looks. Majority of us discriminate on the basis of education, intelligence, moral level, "interesting" factor, social standing and so on.

    Only difference is that we are all at different levels here. Some one is less discriminatory and someone might be more. May be discriminating on the basis of looks is a lot worse when compared to discriminating on the basis of "goodness of character".

    This might seem confusing /senseless to others. But atleast this is how I am thinking right now. I do acknowledge that my inherent biases might prevent me from seeing things clearly.

    Again, let me say that I am NOT supporting hurting people or disrespecting people because of their distinctions.

    I am willing to listen if someone has a view to share.
     
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  3. Quebec

    Quebec Platinum IL'ite

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    Hi,

    @dancer,

    ya valid points....

    I also took the hint that time and exited.....

    Now i dont post anything in these forums....

    Happy being a reader only......

    I like the tune you're dancing to and making me dance.......

    Take care
    chow

    boogyman and dowryman are now resting for a while.
     
  4. Dancer

    Dancer Silver IL'ite

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    Quebec,

    Actually, the truth is that even I found the OP's comments in the original post a little one-sided and insensitive. I do understand that a lot of anger in the replies comes from the unfortunate experiences many ladies here have gone through.

    But I guess so much of backlash and the "ganging up" made me post this. I am wondering if I just love playing the devil's advocate!
     
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  5. shambavi2000

    shambavi2000 Silver IL'ite

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    Hi dancer!

    Quite a dance on 'discrimination' I should say. Every time we make a choice-wise or otherwise,we are discriminating.What's a choice to me, in somebody else's view may be a 'discrimination'.And the power of 'choice' is the right we all live by-the only thing we can't choose is the family we are born into and our genes-rest all is manageable I believe.
     
  6. Dancer

    Dancer Silver IL'ite

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    I like what you have said about making choices. I think our personal experiences and biases go into making that choice.

    I think generally (there are exceptions) people who get benefited by the status quo are resistant to change, while those that have been affected are calling for change. But it can also work the the other way where even the affected people don't want the status quo to change as they don't want to give the benefits they did not get to the future generation?

    However, I guess it would be good to self-introspect periodically, learn from mistakes and make changes to our viewpoints wherever applicable.
     
  7. arch1209

    arch1209 Platinum IL'ite

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    Dear Dancer,

    Your post reminded me of something that a professor of mine told me. My professor works with rehabilitating extreme violent offenders and she was once telling us that people ask her how she can work with men and women that have done terrible things to children. Her answer was "I hate the act but don't hate the actor - there is some history there and I look for that," I had a tough time wrapping my mind around it and I still struggle with it because I think that there is a very thin line separating the two. However, I totally agree with you that one should not indulge in personal attacks, you may attack someone's view point if you feel that it is oppressive or discriminating but calling a person names because they have opposing views is unfair and uncalled for. I think if I had to do so I would probably be fighting with my entire family :)
    I think irrespective of the choices we make or our personal opinions and view points one thing each one of us can agree is that discrimination be it of any kind is wrong. Sometimes it may be difficult for us to digest things, because we all have our own individual biases but acknowledging it and not justifying it is the first step towards making a change. A lot of times people end up justifying their biases and most of the justifications do not hold any rationality , I think rather than justifying our irrational biases (which everyone has) trying to empathize with the person or being a good listener to, who has made a different choice or who is on the receiving end of our oppressive acts (each one of us has been an oppressor at some point not only by our actions but also by our thoughts) can lead to some harmony.
     
  8. Dancer

    Dancer Silver IL'ite

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    arch1209,

    We can learn a thing or two from people like your professor who are able to look beyond the apparent and see the "history". Hate the act and not the actor - something to remind ourselves.

    Liberals or conservatives, I think all of us are together in the sense that we are all struggling to accept opposing views with peace :rotfl

    What is liberal today might become conservative tomorrow. So, a "rigid, old-schooler" of today might have been an accepted member of the society in the past? As an extension, a "good, accepting" person today might not be considered the same in the future? I don't deal well with change and it frustrates me.

    I wonder what is the point of all this? Are all these differences indirectly an opportunity for us to learn tolerance, compassion and unconditional love?

    Anyway, intellectualizing these issues can only take us forward till a point. May be the real understanding would come from life experiences, developing virtues, religion (when used in a constructive way), spirituality etc... I am :spin

    Thank you for your inputs.
     
  9. vaidehi71

    vaidehi71 IL Hall of Fame

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    yes , i too agree that i have over reacted and made certain comments and i could have avoided certain terms. If I have offended Mathangi mam in any way I request her to forget and ignore it. I am way younger than her and i am more sensitive to those things.

    but when such a post is written which clearly showing the OPs bias (esp the one post MAD/E FOR EACH OTHER) it does make others angry. Of course it received lots of bitter remarks, because it is a knee jerk reaction for what has been written. I asked even my dh to read the initial post without ever reading the subsequent replies to get his unbiased answer. His opinion is the same as mine, that it is some immature post.

    Even though the post suggests the reaction of other people to a couple, it does not in anyway show the OPs objection to it. Even though we see such incidents around, there is no denial to the fact that we can close our eyes and ignore it.

    Even if the OP had given atleast some opinion of hers, condemning such behaviour of the people who had attended the marriage, then the entire replies for the post would have been different.

    And by the by my marriage is like the one she has described except that it is an arranged marriage. Exactly the same. does it change, how others look at as, or does it change people from coming to my house, or does it change the affection we have as a couple? nothing at all. well if my parents had atleast one moment considered about it or even if i had thought about it for one moment, it would have affected my self confidence and I would be not be a professionally qualified person at all. Moreover you might think my dh married because of my education, infact he did not even know what i have studied until after my marriage was fixed. coming to kids, both of mine are replica like us, one dark and another fair. does it change our attitude towards them, no and never. Infact i tell my kids never to judge a person by colour and dress or any external appearance. My usual advice for them, to be beware of strangers is that in real life, the villain will always be neatly dressed and looks good, and never like the one you see in movies.

    Dancer, on one thing i disagree with your opinion on the OP. you have written that there was miscommunication on the part of her writing the post and probably language problem. The OP herself has claimed that she is a teacher and has ample experience in her field and I don't think there was such a problem. If miscommunication or language problem is there, atleast there would have been a subsequent post stating her stance and that she could have stated that she wrote it unintentionally or she could have edited it later on. there is always a chance for them to clarify which the OP has not done.

    I did regret some of what I have written, so I have asked the Op to ignore it at the beginning of this post. Is it too difficult for her to clarify her position on it using simple words.
     
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  10. teacher

    teacher Platinum IL'ite

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    Dancer,
    I liked your analysis very much. How to disagree is an art and a skill. Discrimination is not a topic where we can agree to disagree. There has to be a learning outcome at the end of the debate. Otherwise it becomes institutionalized and under the radar-never addressed openly and so, no progress.

    Progress in such issues, is also subjective. What we are willing to accept when we face an issue is very different from what we accept for another person. It depends on our personal experiences and how we feel about certain issues.

    Sometimes we get riled up on behalf of others and shut down any means of communication but the 'injured party' may actually want a conversation. At the height of the proposition 8 controversy, we were at my friend's house for dinner. While a couple of the 'straight' people were upset with the Mormon church's interference on the right to marry, my friend, a catholic lesbian was very specific..."I don't care about marriage. If I am at my death bed or if she is ill, I do want to have visitation rights." a couple of the other guests who were also lesbian wanted marriage. Even within a particular group there can be dissension on what individual members want. We can't presume that the other person wants the same as what we want for them. But for any sort of consensus or learning, we have to have a discussion first.

    Besides, the other side of the same coin does not make it better.

    NB: just read your other response too...soda butti, eh? I had braces and SB:) I'm just happy not to be carrying the extra weight around :)
     

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