Us College Admission Scandal: Is India's Meritocracy Based Approach Better?

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Hey guys
I think this discussion is seriously side tracked from what i thought its original purpose was.

This the first question to answer in reservation debate @Greenbay

I don't think the measure for this has been seen till date

QUOTE="Greenbay, post: 4128504, member: 462011"]My original intention was to discuss apple versus apple comparison of should elite colleges allow back door and side door entrance on the backdrop of recently unearthed US undergrad college admission scandal[/QUOTE]
apples vs apples mean what?
That we are comparing US citizens getting access to higher education in their country vs Indian citizens getting access to education opportunities in their own country?

, Now this one is seriously a wrong one to be given in the context here. Do you know that Tendulkar committee had defined Poverty Line to be Rs 32 and Rs 27 in urban and rural areas in 2011-12 respectively. Now if you agree with this definition then the 22 per cent figure comes from there.
Anyways , subsequently rangarajan commission revisited the same and you should read this link to get the debate there
New poverty line: Rs 32 in villages, Rs 47 in cities - Times of India ►
Before you construe that what I am saying is that there has been no progress in the nation, i choose to clarify that that's really not what i am trying to say. Everyone here assumed that the discussion was for comparison in terms of opportunities in both the nations currently, in respect of parents and students today from India.

[QUOTE="Rihana, post: 4128515, member: 34666"]All that being said : ), it is Ivy day on Thursday 3/28. I don't want to be the parent of a kid who slogged his butt off and does not get into an Ivy that he deserved to, and would have got in with the meritocracy approach. I am so glad we are more particular about our weekend afternoon naps, and never driving child more than 3 miles to an activity. No robotics, speech/debate, science fair trauma and cross-country air travel to squash/lacrosse tournaments for us.[/QUOTE]
Best wishes @Rihana ji

I think it would be better to evaluate it in terms of the circumstances , currently , and what benfit it would accrue. In the proposed quota, the income is to be defined as applicable to those families with an yearly income below 8 lakhs ( you may also know that it may cover almost 95 percent of the poplulation). This really is no where close to poverty line.

I think you are misconstruing intentions here again. no one meant to debate any writing skills in this specific post.

The issue here is again, that do you think that the benefits accrued to the poor and under privileged of the previous generation, are going to be passed to the current under privileged in the same ratios.
My answer here is no, simply because the population has grown many fold, the institutes haven't in the same manner. Adding to that, those reserved category individuals who made it in the previous years have kids vying ( their kids are still not as un privileged, you may agree) for their share in the quota system, which puts them at an advantage over the really deserving under privileged of today . That's the only point in reservation today.

 

Don’t take it to heart.
2. While debates and deliberations done in public or in any forum, there is scope for criticism, ridicule, deviation from the goal of topic etc and it could be war of words accompanied by intellectual gymnastics and verbal pyrotechniques. These should not or ought not to be a deterrent for participants or OPs.
3. By bringing here a topic of universal importance applicable to many geographies for lively thought provoking vis a vis countries, you have done a great favour offering great scope to learn and enrich themselves for all participants who seemed to have risen from humble beginnings.
4. Kudos to OP & all other participants for generating a heated debate embracing education system in general and higher studies in India & abroad.
5. Corruption is universal and reservations for downtrodden or based on caste can never be eliminated even in next two three generations. Yes corruption could be an offshoot of reservation policy in academics and higher studies all over the world.
6. A news item in The Hindu appeared a month ago announced fake universities in Houston and other states and the authorities - FBI- apprehended the connected persons that included some NRIs and confiscated fake rubber stamps and other gadgets and computers with data intact that were used for making forgedor false certificates of degrees in MS. This all sequel to A FEW DUPED ASPIRANTS from such fake universities complained to FBI .
7. Reservation based on caste And reservation to blacks in USA FOR ENTRY to higher education And professional courses were fought in courts of Law over last several decades but the issue prevails even today.
Merit based and belonged to economically weaker section of society should have reservation might be seemingly sound but for several decades certain caste moved economically well ahead of forward communities and their wards still enjoy this privilege is unacceptable.
Merit based system of admission seemingly good in India especially in Tamilnadu but The students who got the merit by mugging up course material in +2 without understanding the application of laws, failed miserably and could not cope up with engineering. This lead to huge drop outs.
8. A read through ananalysis as to how commercialised the admission process for medical dental and engineering studies in private and government realm made by my octogenarian friend at least for the last 6 decades is appended below:
(Quote)
Why Feb 24 mattered 50 years back and today in TN Politics

On Feb 24 1967 (50 years back) an important event took place
in TN Politics. Kamaraj & Bhaktavatsalam (then CM) were forced to
resign after they lost the election to the 234 member assembly.
DMK won and staked the claim the Govt and "Got it".

To their credit, they have held on to it (either as DMK or as AIADMK)
for last 50 years. Btw, I noticed this, in The Hindu today ("50 years ago column -Page 15) and suprisingly even Hindu newspaper itself has not commented on it.
(They are busy glorifying the Kashmir separatists via photo on their front pages,
one more proof that Shares of Hindu have been bought out by foreign interests)

The congress in general led a good & clean Govt for 20 years but why was it voted out and never managed a return. In my opinion, this has not been analyzed in the way it deserves. The 2 Dravidian parties have lowered the standard of Governance and instituionalized
Government corruption as well as expanding multiple times, the number of less productive Government employees who number over 1 million in just TN (with population of 70 million).

I see the following contributing factors for this political development (of decline of congress and ascent of a regional power such as DMK/ AIADMK inspite of other 5-6 smaller claimants)

1) Congress has not been able to re-group and attack in states they lost because their
new HQ culture instituted by Indira Gandhi and followed subsequently till now.
With each Pradesh congress chief being selected soley based on loyalty to Gandhi family
rather than local organizing capacity, the decline has been steady. In a state such as TN,
where they had a vote share of over 50%, it is now less than 5%. Interestingly, they not
only lost the assembly but also the Lok sabha seats - and this made a big difference.

2) DMK & AIADMK both have common origins. They had a single agenda to replace
Elite Brahmin dominance with Dravidian candidates in Admin and in public life. On this count, they have delivered 100%. Both had origins in Film industry and built up their mass base using public speaking skills at small political meetings using Tamil as language of discourse.

3) Both DMK & AIADMK saw opportunities in liberalization of economy more than other
state Govts and used them well to make money for themselves. They discovered- a processinitiated by J and copied by MK that by constantly threatening the center which had a series of weak leaders as PMs, got more central govt funds for their development particularly for 2 key sectors such as Roads and Power. In both these 2 key infra areas, TN is well ahead of other states such as Bihar.

They already had a good port in Chennai for export & import. About 1 lakh crores flowed each year into TN for next 30 years.

4) As a direct result, private industrial units prospered in TN as they like the Logistics and power.
Earlier to Liberalization, MGR had discoered and developed a "new Golden goose", the private sector educational Institutions of Higher learning. As a result in subsequent 40 years after 1985, TN now boasts over 600 educational instituions, several of them autonomous, whose main pay off is acquiring 100 acres of private lands (by forcible acquistions from farmers or occuping water bodies) under a "trust that does not pay tax". This is a, far better "financial model" than Pvt Ltd companies.

They are large and limited power centers for generating and utilizing "black money" and all of them without exception have political patronage from one quarter or another because the process was facilitated under special status for "Minority educational Instituions". (here Minority does not mean Muslims- but non-Brahmins of various small castes). The business generation was another Rs. 1,000 crores plus each year (Estimate Basis 500,000 students x 20,000 per year = 1000 crores annual cash flow of black money)

5) Fortunately for TN and this was not planned by either DMK or AIADMK, IT arrived to save the TN Brahmins. Many got themselves admitted in small private diploma courses and due to demand, got lucrative job opportunities in Indian IT cos such as TCS and Infoys who sent them "Body-shopping" to USA - thanks to H1B. Based on estimate of 500,000 TAMBrahms working abroad saving an estimate of Rs 7 lakhs per year (US$10,000), this resulted in additional cash flow of Rs 500 crores - almost all of it went to Real estate that trigered a pyramid-build up of rising property prices attracting 100 times local funds including from Politicians making it a Rs 50,000 crores per year Industry. Except for stamp duty, the state does not collect any tax and most transactions are not monitored.

6) Then there was a next level of innovation by J. She nationalized the "Wine" industry and opened up over 5,000 outlets that sold each day a net revenue of Rs 1 lakh of liquor (Rs 100 x 1,000 buyers). This meant a revenue of Rs 5,000 crores per year that had several additional pay-off points for Political kick-back. Part of this amount was allocated for freebies with another pay-off point for Political kick-back.

7) While MK had organized it in 1967, subsequent CMs- MGR & J added their inputs, in making the streamlining of Political corruption by each Ministry and by Dept with details of collectins and deposits with releavnt Secretaries of each Ministry (to keep proper accounting). Only the CM at the head, knows the "Total amount collected per day and where it is parked". All others know only a bit of this or that. Hence the importance of Secretary to CM. As per grape-vine this amount exceeds in 2016, Rs 1,000 Cr per day or Rs 3 lakh crores. E.g. Sasikala knows these details as she was handling this for J- hence her importance. The total amount collected and parked by her could be Rs 10 lakh crores over the years and hence her clout to hold 120 MLAs. She can afford to pay them Rs 10 crores per year and still be in surplus.

8) This is the present political economy of TN below the radar. Over and above this, the official state budget is Rs 1.4 lakh crores per year and some of it is again used for "political power".

9) Money is the key to the success of DMK & AIADMK because they handled it better than Congress.
(Unquote)

10. King Akbar & Birbal remained incognito during their walk in late night to check any illegal activity. Akbar spotted a man taking bribe from people and asked Birbal to discover what’s going on. Birbal reported the man from His office allowing certain illegal activity for which he had taken bribe.
Akbar ordered that man forthwith transferred to shore to count the waves. Birbal politely told corruptionis in man’s bloodstream and where ever he is posted he is bound to find innovative ways to get bribed.
Few days later from a distance , both Akbar & Birbal watched the man was being paid by fisherfolk before pushing their boat for fishing.
Birbal went close and found that man was ordering a fisherman that King instructed him to count the waves and if fishermen disturbs his duty then king would punish the fisherman. The latter bribed him instantly and walked off to push his cart.
When Birbal reported this, Akbar said “I agree with u. corruption would survive even if we award capital punishment.”

11. When a parliamentarian from Opposition bench wanted that the government should not permit brain drain especially IITians as the government spend huge amount in construction and maintenance of IITs in India & those who had left Indian soil were traitors, the ruling party spokesperson responded that India lacks to provide jobs matching their caliber!
12. I studied engineering availed government of India merit cum means scholarship and when opportunity to leave India with my class mates to Detroit was their in 1968, I chose to remain with Bharat Matha.

I am sorry for this lengthy response & I hope this boring lengthy FB would be endured!
Regards.

God Bless the Nations with economically or freely educated professionals and prevent nation and its citizens divided along reservation vs unreserved seats/castes.

 

Thanks for elaborate response.
I presume my statement quoted ibid is made in the overall context and not to hurt any one. I am only son for my late parents and thatalso could beareason forty not availing that opportunity to join my colleagues in Detroit.
Regards.
God we are geographically divided but one in Mind. Thanks.

 

Thanks for the response

Now coming to this, let me first state that I am not very well conversant with the US admissions at this stage.
However, to make the comparison let's see how it happens in India.
If we are talking about the engineering colleges , First there is one entrance exam, which all of the aspiring students take and the result of this is what decides the fate of those students for that year.
Lately, the authorities being receptive to this pressure have decided to hold 2 Mains exam ( one in January one sometime in May ), for students to have two attempts to score ,on the basis of which a panel list of students is made and they are allocated colleges.
For admission to IIT, there is another exam after this mains for deciding specific admissions to IIT; but i believe the rest of colleges like NIT etc (earlier REC's) is made on the basis of the first entrance exam. Others' may please clarify if this is incorrect
Now , to my mind , the comparison of the reservation here with perhaps as you explained above that deserving students could not break in to top 20 of the US universities, stands as there might be a hidden diversity criterion in the US universities ( which tantamount to quota unofficially).
The general indian student also , has to really pray to fit in to the general quota seat to make it, so as to let the , reserved category students with much lesser threshold /cutoff limit also make it there.
To give you a hypothetical example, the difference between the last selected student in these colleges may have only half a mark difference as compared to the first one to be left out . However, the first student of reserved category may actually have a twenty marks difference with the last student on the general list.
Also , you may know that those deserving students from reserved category if they happen to score better and fall within the general merit cutoff, they are considered as part of general lists , thereby making it even more difficult for the general category students
Don't you think that is also unfair for the other students who being deserving were left out from these admissions.
How is it different from deserving students in USA not getting into university of their choice, maybe on the basis of their chosen criterion which was not restricted to academics and other similar criterion only.

Also, to be dependent on only one day of exam which can make or break your chances is a bit of a pressure to handle. So i would still stick with what i wrote in my first post here, but may i add i am not completely clear about the US admissions and their fairness