Us College Admission Scandal: Is India's Meritocracy Based Approach Better?

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by Greenbay, Mar 25, 2019.

  1. Greenbay

    Greenbay Gold IL'ite

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    Geeta avare, I am sorry that you misunderstood and misinterpreted that only few people should participate in this discussion. None of my posts indicated such preference.

    My original intention was to discuss apple versus apple comparison of should elite colleges allow back door and side door entrance on the backdrop of recently unearthed US undergrad college admission scandal. But if participants equate this scandal to reservations in India and want to discuss only reservations, please go ahead.
     
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  2. Rihana

    Rihana Moderator Staff Member IL Hall of Fame

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    Once again you are assuming and assigning labels such as "bitterness." There is no bitterness, just some hard questions about a 70 year old system. That same hope, compassion that you prescribe is also needed for forward caste poor people. You and I made it, many other forward caste poor people did not. Their future generations also might not. What about them? When will it be their turn?

    Lovely flowing words. They do not answer the question:
    How can such a system be allowed to run for decades without a reliable measure of its effectiveness happening alongside?

    I am educated and have read enough to understand that reservations are needed. I have searched to quite some length to see if there is any measure of its effectiveness. Could not find any studies that are comprehensive enough and continue over decades, as different parties come to power. There are some small studies with dusty old reports uploaded to gov.in websites, that's all.
     
  3. Greenbay

    Greenbay Gold IL'ite

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    India's GDP over the years is one leading indicator. India's PPP is another indicator. Middle class of over 350 million expected to rise to 475 million in 10 years is one more indicator. System has its inefficiency but to term that there is no measurement at all is a false notion.
    Please read these links
    https://www.quora.com/Do-statistics-prove-that-reservation-is-beneficial-in-India
    Standard of living in India - Wikipedia
    "In 2011, less than 22 percent of Indians lived under the global poverty line, nearly an 8 percent reduction from 29.8 percent just two years prior in 2009"
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2019
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  4. Rihana

    Rihana Moderator Staff Member IL Hall of Fame

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    Quora answer by "Mohan Vanamali, a humble Indian" and a link from Wikipedia (which is not an acceptable source even for a middle school report) are not "reliable comprehensive studies over decades."
    Yet again you ascribe false comment to me. I did not say there was no measurement at all. I said there are small studies with dusty reports.

    For a system that even if for good intentions, systemically takes away seats and opportunities from so many, that we need to look hard and find some stray evidences of effectiveness is appalling. Meanwhile, Data Science has gone on to become a major in colleges.
     
  5. Rihana

    Rihana Moderator Staff Member IL Hall of Fame

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    Coming back to the original question: US College Admission Scandal: Is India's Meritocracy Based Approach Better?

    First we'd have to define what is a meritocracy based approach for the U.S. Let's say it is something like DASA that uses SAT test scores. Or, a combination of test scores and high school GPA. The short answer is No. Such an approach would take away from the diversity of a college. In the U.S. learning is not just in the college classrooms. It happens all around campus. Those years are formative. Students grow from 18 year old's to mature, thinking adults. Exposure to people of different abilities and from different kinds of background is essential. It would make for a very boring campus if it was filled mostly with academic high-achievers.

    Some poor and not-poor do lose out in the current system in U.S. colleges admission. But overall, it works as there are other options that are quite palatable.

    My kids would get accepted into better colleges with a meritocracy method as I have the time and inclination to pour over tests, and test prep strategies. But, I wouldn't want them to go to a college filled mostly with kids who are clones of them.

    All that being said : ), it is Ivy day on Thursday 3/28. I don't want to be the parent of a kid who slogged his butt off and does not get into an Ivy that he deserved to, and would have got in with the meritocracy approach. I am so glad we are more particular about our weekend afternoon naps, and never driving child more than 3 miles to an activity. No robotics, speech/debate, science fair trauma and cross-country air travel to squash/lacrosse tournaments for us.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2019
  6. Rihana

    Rihana Moderator Staff Member IL Hall of Fame

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    Really? If some inquisitive journalist looks it up and compiles data, it will show that the rich parents mostly paid for fluff degrees? Not the ones that are impacted at those colleges?
     
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  7. Amica

    Amica IL Hall of Fame

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    Corruption is alive and well around the world. Why does the college admission scandal surprise anyone?! Human beings are the same everywhere. Corruption occurs in every society to one extent or the other.

    Caste-based reservation is not the only ill in the Indian educational system. Are we forgetting the rampant cheating in exams and the bribery that goes on unchecked?

    In spite of the many flaws, in my experience, Indian institutions are not all bad. I don't know if this is still true, but education and medical treatment used to be heavily subsidized by the government. College fees were very affordable — in contrast, American students are drowning in debt. Medical care used to be available free to all in India. Those who could not afford private hospitals were not SOL.

    IMO, reservation and scholarships should be based on finances. The 10% EWS system would be a step in the right direction.
    .
     
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  8. Amica

    Amica IL Hall of Fame

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    You have my respect, RihJi.

    I know that you extend financial help to family in need in India. A far cry from "bitterness."
    .
     
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  9. Greenbay

    Greenbay Gold IL'ite

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    In my search, I came across many such reports if one is a subscriber and/or ready to pay money. I attached the free links. If I am convinced that reservation has not played a major role in lifting oppressed segment of the society, I would not hesitate to pay to read such reports. Do your homework and find such reports.

    For a household of two, Maids were considered necessity in this board. There was stray evidence for that too but people were giving anecdotal evidences that quality of life improves dramatically if couple is engaged in other activities other than moping, cleaning, and cooking. Same way, if Indians take look around them, they can see income and education has risen for Dalits, backward castes, SC/STs since 1950s. In the meantime forward castes had to adopt too. If Brahmin priest's son cannot make a living as a priest but umpteen engg colleges assure that he can become an engineer instead. Kshatrya's son cannot become a warrior but he/she can join Indian Air force or Indian army.

    Another important note: I cannot debate like many of you but my participation is to learn from each other and not to show who is good in formulating words and what is acceptable in debate. If intent is to find faults in the way I present my arguments, you will find many faults but there would not be any learning. My upbringing has been very ordinary and I started reading English newspapers and articles only after I came to US (16-17 years ago), so if my words are misinterpreted, blame it on my education. I love reading all types of replies (anecdotal or academic), so I would love to see all types of replies but if if in every other post, I have to clarify what I meant, I am sorry, this thread probably is not meant for sensitive souls to participate.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2019
  10. Greenbay

    Greenbay Gold IL'ite

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    Many of them did get reservations.
    That's why I asked do abusers outweigh the beneficiaries?

    Also think from an angle of not privileged. If mom/dad did the scavenging job from morning to evening, will the home learning environment improve to their school going kid within just one generation?
    Most of us in US are first generation immigrants. The habits we inculcate to our children is based on our upbringing in India. Except few, majority will lack business savvy or management savvy compared to native born Americans. But our children will be better than us, and their next generation better than them, and so on.

    In a way, we all have benefited from reservation of this country through H1/B1/F1/L1/J1 visas. If country has benefited due to our hard work, we too have benefited . In India too, it has been 2 way but from a narrow lens, we view only the opportunities lost due to reservation. Someone has gained substantially and to society's advantage. It is not zero sum game.
     
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