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Gabfest: And Thereby Hangs A Tail

Discussion in 'Education & Personal Growth' started by Cimorene, Jan 9, 2017.

  1. Afresh

    Afresh Gold IL'ite

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    Trying to relate to a simpler industry as maybe something like using land for residential and agricultural purposes;
    I think , it may not be arrogance, but it could be just how our mind is evolved to think and visualize ' straight jacketed' ; it is unable to comprehend , multi dimensional thoughts about how nature evolves and thus restricts itself to 'orderliness' at the first go...
    Consequently we keep adding dimensions, as we go about building on the primary functions
    So i would mull on ' it's less about arrogance, but more on limitation of the human mind...........'
    :confundio1::grimacing:
     
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  2. Sweety2016

    Sweety2016 Gold IL'ite

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    Dear @kaniths ,

    ...from a different pov, I wonder again if the orderliness in our designs also a representation of our arrogance?


    No no at all...its not arrogance its ignorance!!! We just cant think or visualize beyond it...But we have the willingness and curiosity to understand stuffs. Hence we discretize a problem and try to solve it in groups...Many Black holes have been existent in this universe for a billions years now.. But we were able to image one of it only now using an event horizon telescope, a planet scale array of telescopes positioned at different parts of the globe. They are n number of such phenomena that we need to study and understand so only less actualised people can actually tend to be arrogant and that also comes out of ignorance and stupidity:)


    Are we trying to put the wild nature into perfect lines, boxes, and models in a way to have some control over it?

    We literally cant control anything about nature..All we are doing is devising coping up mechanism so that human civilization dont go extinct...Were we able to control cyclones, earthquakes, tsunamis, volcanos, floods etc? No. but everyday we take a step forward to tackle the situation so that the losses and havoc created could be minimized. You must be knowing about the cyclone Fani that hit orissa and W. Bengal. The meteorological department issued warnings and the government carried out mass evacuations where lakhs were sent to relief camps much before the cyclone hit. This is the main reason why the death toll was around 40, else millions would have died by now.


    or to at least have the satisfaction that we can? :relaxed:
    The moment we start feeling complacent about having a hold on the nature , mother nature just shows her ghastly side to put us back to our place..Climate change is the biggest concern of today's world..Another 1.5 deg C rise in temperature is going to be detrimental to the planet !!
     
  3. kaniths

    kaniths Finest Post Winner

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    It was an instant thought at that time though I had these pics in mind that prompted the question.

    arz1.jpg

    Are you able to trace similar patterns in comparison wrt top and bottom pics? Do you see what I see? :relaxed:

    Context is, say, urban architecture. In the last century, our building landscapes seems/have become (IMO) more and more flat, monotonous and repetitive. Nothing but tall, boring geometry towering us everywhere (top pic). Even with all its unruliness, irregular patterns, the natural world is awe-inspiring as it is (below pic). Not?

    Another example...
    arz2.jpg

    I was wondering in the first place - that while emulating nature's designs to our best of capabilities, we are any way exercising control by strictly sticking to the "order"? Chaos is scary. Nature may break rules whenever. We tend not to and if our designs stand a point to prove that despite the imposed biological and technical limitations, we are "superior" creators ourselves as nature? Egoistic and proud like that? As in "Look, we did!" :smile: I know, I heard myself! Absurd much. :facepalm:

    From the offline discussion, I understand we need "order" in our designs for safety, stability, and efficiency - which makes total sense as our prime priorities, yep, gotcha! :touched:

    Thank you. :innocent:
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2019
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  4. kaniths

    kaniths Finest Post Winner

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    What about the behavior angle? Never mind. Agree with you there! :relaxed:
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2019
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  5. kaniths

    kaniths Finest Post Winner

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    This.

    Truth and well put. I'm convinced now! :thumbsup:

    Thank you so much. :beer-toast1:
     
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  6. Afresh

    Afresh Gold IL'ite

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    Honeycomb might be an exception ;)
     
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  7. Gauri03

    Gauri03 Moderator Staff Member IL Hall of Fame

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    It's a long book, dry in parts, but worth the read. Took me an unusually long time to get through it. I've been told the audiobook is easier to stick to.
     
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  8. sokanasanah

    sokanasanah IL Hall of Fame

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    Biological evolution occurs with the twin luxuries of number and time - an untold number of individual genotypes upon which selection operates over vast swathes of time. Given sufficient selection pressure, optima can be found relatively efficiently for almost any given fitness landscape given enough time. For example, the complex, lensed eye has evolved independently, many many times. In Cnidarian jellyfish, the eye evolved independently at least eight times!! This attests to the value (= strong positive selection pressure) of having light-sensitive organs.

    However, the things to keep in mind are that (a) these are local optima - not global, and (b) sudden or dynamic changes in the fitness landscape can allow for some genotypes to find a fitness peak, while at the same time annihilating others, not giving them time to adapt. Think of the dinosaurs vs. the small mammal lemurs - the former went extinct, while the latter colonised the earth. These considerations imply two things - (1) evolution can only act on preexisting genotypes (it does not invent de novo) and (b) It is jugaad, finding the fastest fix required to survive in the here and now (in evolutionary time) in a dynamic fitness landscape, but not necessarily the best, global optimum! Evolution is all WD40 and duct-tape and making do. Mere decades after a near-apolcalyptic disaster, Chernobyl is now teeming with life adapted to lethal radiation; but, an organism adapted to one environment at one time will find itself unfit for survival at a different time and place.

    Note that a macroscopic axle-and-wheel system, so vital to human civilisation, has never evolved in nature (some claims for sub-cellular structures exist). There are many reasons for this, but one simple way to think about it is that a wheel requires free rotation - delivering blood, oxygen, nutrients, and nerve impulses to a free-rotating organ is biomechanically difficult! This is OK because it's hard to find paved roads in the jungle (might still work in the savannah, no? o_O), so legs are better, but still, the point is that nature does not know everything. Or, for those of us in love with her, one could say that for anything mother nature is unable to invent, she invents us to do on her behalf.

    We are part of nature too. Our greatest obligation to the universe, no matter how unforgiving it may appear, is to not annihilate ourselves - for in the hitherto silent cosmos, we are nature trying to understand itself.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2019
  9. saileela85

    saileela85 Senior IL'ite

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    I can understand ....
     
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  10. kaniths

    kaniths Finest Post Winner

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    So nature's design is a continuous process? Changing with the changing environments? With different strategies whenever, wherever, however suitable and independent of species, "in pursuit of optimal solutions", at any given time in the grand evolutionary landscape? :grazy: Choosing any direction of progress as it may because nature has no foresight. But gradually over generations, with "enough (geological) time". Bottom-up but more like a hit or miss approach. "Random luck" - a luxury we can't afford in our designs! :frown:

    Interesting! To think wheels within the context as a mechanical tool for movement and actions can maximum roll and rotate, go forward and backward at any point of time. Not to miss the need for additional components like pedals, brakes, shafts, etc to control pace and direction. Nature's biological limb design is multi-purposeful. We can clutch, climb, walk, run, etc, etc with only our limbs. Also, 180 degree rotational and limbs are suitable for most terrains. Efficient, maximum resource optimization, with multitasking too! :shocked: Just wow. #SoMuchForRandomHitOrMiss!
    We look up to nature to learn about it and understand ourselves in the process, likewise, nature about itself through us (and other living beings)? Such a meta-thought (if I have understood right)!:touched:

    Sounds like we could be living in a "Natural Simulation"... :tongueout: If so, Nature sure has a dark sense of humor then. :mask: Lol.

    Thank you. :beer-toast1:
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2019
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