If God Exists, Why Isn't It Obvious?

@jskls didn't religion introduce prejudices? A way of discipline you say?

 

Kaniths, who invented all these religions ? Man .... Who would have introduced prejuidices then?
No further arguments

 

same side goal?

 

Just on a lighter note - Back to my Fortran days [One of the earlier computer languages, very much english like and simple], I read a famous quote - God is real unless declared as an integer [The pun here is this - the language by default took all variables that start with i,j,k,l,m,n as integers and rest as real [like number with decimals. Since God started with "G", it must be real, as per Fortran standards]. But Fortran is man-made.

I choose to be a believer with doubts, but the doubt is more with myself and not with the presence of something superior. The question is - Will I be able to feel or realize it? -rgs

 

@rgsrinivasan rgs! Surprise to see you here! This space is all yours, pour more of your thoughts pls? Any day I had listen to you!

 

@Gauri03

Since I am on the fence right now yet believe in a power that I do not understand and not for the personal things that happen to me or others - just looking at the universe around me and beyond me, I will try to answer all the questions you have posed (to get a clear picture for myself) I am limiting myself to Hinduism! (your questions in bold)

For nonbelievers:
Why are you an atheist?
Not yet an atheist

about life as an atheist/agnostic,
Reading Gita on a regular basis has me intrigued, even while reading it from non religious purpose and only to get better at Sanskrit. Recently when I mentioned to an aunt that reading it has only brought more questions than understanding, she was quite stunned! Life as an atheist is quite interesting - the questioning part mostly and very surprised to learn that Hinduism is not primarily a theistic religion. It is only after Adi Shankara and others that the Bhakthi movement started and idol worship came into fore. Some of what I am learning is here -

Quoted from Wiki - Atheism in Hinduism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hinduism is a religion, but also a philosophy.[5][6] Among the various schools of Hindu philosophy, Samkhya, Yoga and Mimamsawhile not rejecting either the Vedas or the Brahman ,[7] typically reject a personal God, creator God, or a God with attributes. While Samkhya and Yoga rejected the idea of an eternal, self-caused, creator God, Mimamsa argued that the Vedas could not have been authored by a deity.

Though some schools of thought view the path of the atheist as difficult to follow in matters of spirituality, it is still a valid one.[8] Hindu atheists accept Hinduism more as a "way of life" than a religion.

And then this which completely threw me off -

According to Markandey Katju, Chairman of the Press Council of India and former judge of the Supreme Court of India, "...there are six classical systems of Indian philosophy, Nyaya, Vaisheshik, Sankya, Yoga, Purva Mimansa and Uttar Mimansa, and three non-classical systems, Buddhism, Jainism and Charvak. Out of these nine systems eight of them are atheistic as there is no place for God in them. Only the ninth one, that is Uttar Mimansa, which is also called Vedanta, has a place for God in it."

on reconciling with the religious underpinnings of our culture,
I am quite sure that I was not forced into any religious underpinnings of our culture. My parents and grand parents did what they thought was right and I have always had the liberty to choose, I never chose to question though - perhaps not contemplative enough back then. I do come from an orthodox family, but it is such a potpourri right now, I am not sure of what we follow. I have been fortunate to look at all rituals outside of religion, some that invoked fear and eventually helped me to drop them as my rational mind said "If something invokes fear, I should examine it and make a decision". Rituals have helped me personally get a little disciplined and rituals include lighting a lamp, sitting down quietly for a few minutes every day - have helped me immensely.

and on raising a family as a nonbeliever. What does spirituality mean to you?
Perhaps this is where I fall off the wagon of non believers. Belief has given me strength to move forward and an understanding that everything will work out - that there is some intelligence at play. Every idol in my pooja room has some meaning for me (mostly reminding me of all the dear people I have lost in life) I have also received guidance (some call it divine) when in need, no doubt about that at all, absolutely! So I do what my parents and grandparents did - light a lamp, sit in silence or chant my prayers, every single day. There have been days when my kids have asked me to help them control the chatter in their mind and I have gladly taken them to the Pooja room to help them experience silence. I am part of a vedic chanting class and it is unbelievable how much I have to steady my mind to chant right. Keeping that mind that calm....

Is it possible to be spiritual in the absence of religion?
I have no doubt at all.

What about morality?
Morals are human - doing the right thing by your fellow human!

******************************************************************************************
Believers:

Why do you believe?
There are so many questions that cannot be answered right away. In Richard Bach style "The simplest questions are the most profound. Where were you born? Where is your home? Where are you going? What are you doing? Think about these once in a while and watch your answers change." Answers to questions like where are you going are the ones that help me throw up my hands in the air and simply say "There must be something more than what I perceive"

How do you reconcile your education and understanding of the natural world with belief in a creator god?
I see an absolute intelligence at play. I believe this is because of my education. If anything I am in awe of how the world/universe works itself out, all the time! God in Hinduism has been both Nirguna/Niraakara and Suguna/and with form. I cannot imagine a single God sitting up there dictating every single moment of every single life.

Why does god let evil exist?
We attribute human qualities to God! If he is nirguna/niraakar, he cannot see evil as evil and if he suguna with form, we believe that he comes down every once in a while to take care of stuff...or has replicated himself in good people and mothers

Do stories of unthinkable atrocities committed against innocents shake your belief?
Shakes my belief in humanity certainly! I am not sure if I will attribute human misdeeds to God!

What is your opinion of nonbelievers?
Respect! It is not easy to say I don't believe, especially when there are so many things we do not understand...yet. The quest either way is quite interesting and stimulating.

Do you think morality is the exclusive domain of the religious?
It is a human domain. And quite interestingly I am reading "Think like a freak" and in that the authors has this to say - There is one important explanation for why so many of is think we know more than we do. It has to do with something we all carry with us everywhere we go, even though we may not consciously think about it: a moral compass. Each of us develops a moral compass (some stronger than others, to be sure) as we make our way through the world. This is for most part a wonderful thing. Who wants to live in a world where people run around with no regard for the difference between right and wrong? but when it comes to Solving problems, one of the best ways to start is by putting away your moral compass for when we are consumed with right/wrong, we tend to forget what the issue is!

Both sides are encouraged to engage each other in a polite and civil debate.
I have spoken for both the sides and managed to use this smiley!

Lets make this interesting!
Welcome to my confused world! Hope it is interesting enough! And I hope I have not offended anyone and if I have, may I please ask you to put it own to the confusion?

And finally, personally right now I am fascinated by the Yoga sutras (talks of God nowhere except in Ishwar pranidhana which has several interpretations!) and Sanskrit language for I am quite intrigued with this idea -

Yoga is in Religion. Religion is not in Yoga. I cannot believe Patanjali just said "yogaschittavritti nirodah" and went on explain what he means in the next 195 sutras - even then he does not explain and only asks you to explore!
"Patanjali describes this in the Yoga Sutras where he defines Yoga as the mastery (nirodha) of the mind (Sutra 1.2), allowing the true Self to then come shining through (Sutra 1.3). "

Richard Bach still has my attention with "The mark of your ignorance is the depth of your belief in injustice and tragedy. What the caterpillar calls the end of the world, the Master calls the butterfly." I hope yoga will help me find an answer!

I know @gauri, you did not intend for me to bring in another topic but when not convinced, so many paths open and this seems to be the one for me, for now.

PS: Phew that took way too much of time but was worth every minute. I hope to contribute periodically, if I fail please excuse me...you can assume I am practicing yoga....just kidding!

 

The big owl might give his infamous silent treatment if we didn't acknowledge his presence! Don't be mad @Cheeniya, thank you for dropping by!

PS: Cimorene will reply back to you, keep pulling your beard until then!

 

@Gauri03,

I am truly touched with your words and you are so sweet. This is something we contemplate in our family and often and I had chance to post my views here. Thank you for the opportunity. I needed all that time to show how confused I am and I do feel this way!